Another Trade With Regina

[Shinyshoes]

The Red Deer Rebels Hockey Club announced today they have acquired 18-year old defenceman Juraj Valach and 20-year old forward Troy Ofukany, and Red Deer's 4th Round Selection in the 2009 Draft (Previously aquired) from the Regina Pats for 18-year old defenceman Dallas Jackson and the Pats 3rd Round Pick in 2009 (Previously Aquired).

I have to admit, this trade has me a little confused....

[Toswammi]

So......Why not one trade, do the GM's get bonuses for extra trading?

[SectionNDeserter]

I have to admit that the Ofukany part of this deal has me a little confused--had you said he was coming to Red Deer 2 seasons ago it would have been pretty exciting... My guess is that Regina insisted upon it as part of Valach going anywhere. Does this mean that Brett Sutter isn't coming back? Or that he is going to be dealt? Or perhaps Louis is getting dealt?

Morin and Jackson have been just awful in their own end this season for the most part, and are quite similar in the offensive zone. One of them had to go in order to improve the overall play by our defense in our own zone, and from watching both of them this season, and Jackson holds a slight edge in value being that he has actually improved since the start of the season rather than taking a step backwards like Morin. Valach is far from perfect from what I have seen, but is better in his own end than Jackson, and has a cannon of a shot.

[charlie]

shiny...if you're confused you might want to spread the word around the rebel office...they may make you president.

after helping the moose jaw warriors achieve previously unheard of success over the past three years it appears the rebels are turning to the regina pats to continue their generosity. your rebels are so far from a championship...you think it just takes time to reverse this level of confusion, just wait.... altho i haven't been to a game this year i do watch the off ice shenanigans. some of you think it's just another couple of years and you will be back to a chammpionship level??? in two years most of the young guys on this team will be elsewhere...again...but the team will be getting younger and better lol.

i believe the only way for the team is to get someone like bob tory, kelly mccrimmon or scott bonner...none of whom are available...hockey guys not despots and tyrants...and then start a total rebuilding program.

oh and section n...don't bother dissecting this post...give your concussion time to heal .

[SectionNDeserter]

oh and section n...don't bother dissecting this post...Phht, that sounds like a challenge to me!

i haven't been to a game this yearI don't agree with a lot of what you have posted, but this statement helps me to see the wealth of knowledge you are drawing upon... applause

some of you think it's just another couple of years and you will be back to a chammpionship level???I know I don't think that, nor would I want to predict that ANY team in the WHL will be a championship team 2 seasons from now. But it is still fun to speculate that all the high draft picks that we have will have a season or three under their belt by that time, as well as some excellent penalty killers that we can deal to fill in the holes. Only real question marks for me is the goaltending situation in 2 seasons, and our defense to a lesser extent.

hockey guys not despots and tyrants...and then start a total rebuilding program.Ha ha, which kid that got cut is your son/billet? Just imagine where this team would be had the Sutters never got involved with it..... :laugh:

[witness]

Sutter is going to hate Valech. Big guy and can shoot the puck. But, is inaccurate with that shoot and if you are a team mate, don't go anywhere near the net (ask Kraus). Will not take the body and can not move laterally. Skates well going forward, but don't ask him to change directions. But, he is 18 and has shown improvement.
Ofunkany will bring a physical element and could be a first line guy. Has some scoring touch and works pretty hard. Never got first line time here. Got into Hunt's doghouse and the only way you can get out is to get traded.
Good luck to both guys.

[charlie]

sec n you just break me up. you are the alan alda of this message board,,,you just gotta have the last word. go ahead and post "no i don't" lol...i know you want to.

[SectionNDeserter]

Sutter is going to hate Valech. Big guy and can shoot the puck. But, is inaccurate with that shoot and if you are a team mate, don't go anywhere near the net (ask Kraus).The few times I saw him play here he took the body, and was pretty much the only Pat that did at all in their last game here. The thing I noticed about him in that game was that he was a ways out of position a few times though. None of our current defensemen have been putting the puck on net with any regularity, so he should fit right in. :D

sec n you just break me up. you are the alan alda of this message boardM.A.S.H. was one of my favorite shows of all time, thanks for that man, maybe I was wrong about you!

you just gotta have the last word. go ahead and post "no i don't" lol...i know you want to.What can I say, its a character flaw! See you at the game! Oh wait.... Sorry...

[Some_Arrogant_Jerk]

Unless another trade is made, this one, from a pats standpoint, looks kind of retarded. Boogaard'dvc1tt pbj

From what I have heard, we get a slight upgrade in defensive play, but a definite downgrade in offensive play, and I doubt he has the cannon that Valach has either. I guess this trade is this years version of the Mcdonald-Elder trade that parker made last year.

Maybe we are making way for the european scorer? though I dont understand why the figren trade, along with the other trades was rumored, but that one wasnt announced like the others.

[FreddieFender]

I would tend to agree with "Some Arrogant Jerk" for the most part. Jackson has not shown any great deal of offensive upside, and seems more effective when he keeps things simple. Regarding his ability to shooot the puck, if he improves his ability to find and/or create shooting lanes in the offensive zone, he's got enough zip on his shot to create some chances. If I recall, he's somewhat of an older rookie in this league, so perhaps there is still lots of room for improvement.

[rebelfan]

shiny...if you're confused you might want to spread the word around the rebel office...they may make you president.

after helping the moose jaw warriors achieve previously unheard of success over the past three years it appears the rebels are turning to the regina pats to continue their generosity. your rebels are so far from a championship...you think it just takes time to reverse this level of confusion, just wait.... altho i haven't been to a game this year i do watch the off ice shenanigans. some of you think it's just another couple of years and you will be back to a chammpionship level??? in two years most of the young guys on this team will be elsewhere...again...but the team will be getting younger and better lol.

i believe the only way for the team is to get someone like bob tory, kelly mccrimmon or scott bonner...none of whom are available...hockey guys not despots and tyrants...and then start a total rebuilding program.

oh and section n...don't bother dissecting this post...give your concussion time to heal .

Charlie, you are a fan after my own heart, couldn't have said it better!! Let's get the rose colored glasses out of the way and speak the truth. You don't have to go to the games to watch the antics.
I don't know that you can coach part time, anymore than you can come to the rink and play part time. A lot is being made of how Bryan can be on the farm and 15 min. later be at the rink? Where is his mind when he gets to the rink? On the farm with his bulls or at the rink with his boys. The boys are told to get rid of distractions, to be focused and ready to play. To come to practise as if it was a game. I would think a coach would have to make a WHL team more than just a hobby to succeed. Bryan seems to have shed the tyranny image and appears to be an affable guy but somewhere we lost the intensity, commitment, visibility, control and dedication from management. The kids seem like the Lost Brothers at times. The talk about leadership from their vets should perhaps be directed to leadership from the top.

[charlie]

it's been tough to watch these past few years. i don't like to say much because most of the posters here are fans and love the team, win or lose and i've been there myself. however, what started beautifully with great coaching and well thought out trades and player moves has really come crashing down these last three years. although junior hockey is cyclical, i don't believe that is the case in red deer.

most of the trades made sense up until early 2005 and after that there really seemed to be no plan at all. it seemed to be simply moving bodies, often players who did not flourish in a harsh coaching environment and they were replaced by others that soon were replaced again by others. i was with the new york rangers in the mid 80's when trader phil was doing his thing and you have to believe me when i say the detrimental effect on the entire organization was long lasting. i see the same thing here and even this year i believe the rebels are among the league leaders in players moved...i still see what i feel are knee-jerk reactions...you may get lucky once in a while with that process but mostly other gm's are just waiting for their opportunity to take you to the cleaners by dumping their problems on you.

i also feel the last three years have all been about brandon sutter...don't know if i would be any different if i was in that situation but i do feel the franchise has suffered as a result. i often felt that players were brought in to showcase brandon rather than to develop lasting depth on the team... my belief the trade with kamloops for kris versteeg and his subsequent move back to defence (when he clearly would have been our best forward) was all about having someone with the ability to move the puck up to brandon...and it worked as he had a stellar year but he was the only one to have that . i also think it no small coincidence that the very best euro duo we have ever had in red deer arrived here in brandon's draft year. whether that is true or not, we will never know but it is my feeling.

i also believe that brent sutter knew he was leaving long before it was announced. NHL teams don't wait that long to announce coaches...at least not well run teams and new jersey is well run. i think he stayed until the season tickets were sold although there were signs that he had thrown in the towel. drafting just polak...who will likely play here for a couple of years and disappear into the euro hinterland was one sign and the day that made me decide to stop supporting the team both in seasons tickets and corporate sponsorship was when pighen and poulter were traded for one conditional draft pick.

i know we all believe different things...i remember once when i was coaching bantam AAA and a parent came to me and said "if you were teaching my son to play violin i would have nothing to say to you, but since you are teaching him hockey i know more than you do". i know that running a successful team and organization is very challenging however if you look at the teams with continuing success...year after year they are at least competitive...there is a bit of a blueprint they all follow and unfortunately i don't see signs of it here.

it is very difficult to turn around a failing franchise and this one has fallen a long way...and i think there will be more lean years ahead unless someone with a proven track record takes control and i don;t see that happening today. i don't really miss the hockey much but i do miss my friends...you know who you are...perhaps we can have dinner sometime...chat about old times and then you go to the game and we'll go home.

cheers

[Red celtic]

Hi Charlie
Love to get together with you and your lovely wife it has been to long already. I will give you a call sometime this week.
Craig

[Rebel66]

I don't really understand the need to pick up another 20 year old. Perhaps, in order to get Valech the Pats made Ofunkany a requirement. If we had acquired a player of his skill earlier in the season he might have actually been able to make a difference too. Too little, too late now though. Still, it's better than having Watt taking up an overage spot.

Charlie, I hear what you're saying. There has been a little too much of a revolving door at the Rebels in recent years. Hard to get too much continuity when that's happening. I was also a little miffed at the Pighen trade especially. I felt that he had potential. Still, I am a Rebels fan, have been since they started, and that's not going to change. The family enjoy the night out, visiting with people we now consider friends in our section. Win or lose, it's mostly fun times.
Hey, tonight's 4-3 lose to the high flying Hitmen almost felt like a win.........almost. Shame that it became unbearable for you. Always enjoyed your posts both here and on the white board too.....

[RDRebelsfan]

after what I saw tonight, from a personal stand point, I'd take Ofukany over Watt any damn day!

[Rebel66]

after what I saw tonight, from a personal stand point, I'd take Ofukany over Watt any damn day!

You're not kidding. Ofukany showed more in one game than Watt did the entire season, pretty much. I see that Watt was up to his old tricks on his debut for the Pats too.

[rebelfan]

most of the trades made sense up until early 2005 and after that there really seemed to be no plan at all. it seemed to be simply moving bodies, often players who did not flourish in a harsh coaching environment and they were replaced by others that soon were replaced again by others. i was with the new york rangers in the mid 80's when trader phil was doing his thing and you have to believe me when i say the detrimental effect on the entire organization was long lasting.
i also feel the last three years have all been about brandon sutter...don't know if i would be any different if i was in that situation but i do feel the franchise has suffered as a result. i often felt that players were brought in to showcase brandon rather than to develop lasting depth on the team... my belief the trade with kamloops for kris versteeg and his subsequent move back to defence (when he clearly would have been our best forward) was all about having someone with the ability to move the puck up to brandon...and it worked as he had a stellar year but he was the only one to have that .
i also believe that brent sutter knew he was leaving long before it was announced. NHL teams don't wait that long to announce coaches...at least not well run teams and new jersey is well run. i think he stayed until the season tickets were sold although there were signs that he had thrown in the towel. drafting just polak...who will likely play here for a couple of years and disappear into the euro hinterland was one sign and the day that made me decide to stop supporting the team both in seasons tickets and corporate sponsorship was when pighen and poulter were traded for one conditional draft pick.

i know that running a successful team and organization is very challenging however if you look at the teams with continuing success...year after year they are at least competitive...there is a bit of a blueprint they all follow and unfortunately i don't see signs of it here.

it is very difficult to turn around a failing franchise and this one has fallen a long way...and i think there will be more lean years ahead unless someone with a proven track record takes control and i don;t see that happening today. i don't really miss the hockey much but i do miss my friends...you know who you are...perhaps we can have dinner sometime...chat about old times and then you go to the game and we'll go home.

cheers

It's too bad you have become so disillusioned. I enjoy the hockey a lot but agree with you on most everything you say. Especially on the Poulter & Pighin trade. Poulter's career chances were compromised here. As were Knackstedt's. Poulter may never recover the potential he had. The harsh coaching seemed to completely demoralize him and crush his confidence. Knackstedt rallied and has proven his worth and proved the stupidity of his trade. There is no need for harsh, abrasive and scathing coaching. If positive reinforcement works in all other walks of life, it works in the dressing room too. Authoratative, firm and consisitent treatment will always bring better results. I don't mean soft and spineless. These kids obviously had a lot of talent. Too much I think because I wondered if they would outshine Brandon and that couldn't happen. I feel sorry for the boy. I beleive that all the attention, opportunity because of his name and the showcasing will probably hurt him along the way. Last year already you could see that he was being overplayed and far too tired at the end of his shifts. Like someone posted here not long ago, he has had no rest. From season to post season to pre season and then back to season he's never allowed to quit. For the boys who have to earn their rights of passage, I think many benefit in ways Brandon will never even experience and they may go further. But like you said, would I be any different if I was in the situation? I can only hope I would afford my kid the dignity of arriving under his own steam. The pull to help would be strong though no doubt. I don't begrudge Brandon's success I just agree that it has been too obviously showcased with broken, manipulated, & too many traded bodies in the wake. Too, too bad. We always heard that Red Deer was a great franchise. We've missed most of the greatness since we moved to Central Alberta after 2005, the year you say, things began to change on the team. We've wondered about the tremendous amount of movement here, compared to other teams who seem to hang on to their core group. If I am right there are only a few players left on the team who were actually drafted three years ago. Yet many of the Rebel drafted players are enjoying very successful careers on other teams. The Rebels atleast insure the success of their rivals, if not their own.

I hope the team can turn this listing ship around and put into port for repairs before it is too late. It hurts to see all the empty seats in the Centrium. Up until this year atleast, the fans still cared.

[Tinner]

Alas.......someone finally speaks his mind (charlie). The revolving door of players continues, which is a big distraction for the fans and mostly the players that are still here wondering when they are next. Coaching at this level must be a "full" time job because of all the little things that happen off the ice. Showcasing of individual players has certainly hurt this team and as Pierre McQuirre has said so many times over the past week, it takes courage. Yep, it takes courage to underachieve on the world stage or is it playing past the level your best at?

Anyway, trading for a 20 is confusing and back to back trades with on team is even more confusing. This team, or at least management, is running things, or ruining things, like one legged men at an a** kicking contest. Somebody has to right the ship. Can't blame the players, they're trying, just the skill level is not where it needs to be to be able to compete at this level every game.

I would say that its great that the team has 5000 season ticket holders that inflates the seating for every game. The walkup ticket sales have certainly dropped off, but that should not be the biggest concern for the Rebels. Season ticket holders are the "real" or "die hard" fans the team needs. When the lower bowel seats are empty (they are mostly season ticket holder seats) , it is something everyone sees, including management. I too never went to the game last night, opting instead to surf between NHL and NFL games.

[SectionNDeserter]

Hope you guys' legs are good to go when it is time to get back on the bandwagon again! :)

Ofukany did more in the game last night, than Watt did for us all season. The very fact that they were able to get anything for Watt after the season he has had, much less a first rounder, is nothing short of amazing. How any of you could consider trading an overage player that played dreadful for us this season, and an average 19 year old player (that may or may not have made the team next season), for an 18 year old with some talent and a 16 year old 1st rounder, part of some 'revolving door' conspiracy theory, just boggles my mind. A round of applause for the Rebels management for "unloading" Watt (who they probably won't really get to see play in Regina for 4 or 5 games now due to his 10th or so major+game misconduct on the season).

As for Valach, last night I witnessed him *gasp* keep the puck in at the point when it was passed back to him/attempted to be cleared, and *gasp* shoot the puck! A few times we weren't even on the power play when he did it! He rushed up the ice with the puck a handful of times (though he did turn it over on one of those), and generated some scoring chances from the back end! Hopefully a few of our other young defensemen can learn some of these tricks from him. Valach and Jackson are quite similar in their playing styles, but it isn't difficult to recognize the difference between a player that has played at a high level of hockey for almost 2 seasons, and one that has done it for part of a season. Valach also has some limited WHL playoff experience, while Jackson has none. Jackson wouldn't have been the first of our defenseman that I would have parted with for sure, but his relative inexperience at this level, and his age (he will be 19 in 4 months) are probably what led them to move him.

[rebelfan]

I too never went to the game last night, opting instead to surf between NHL and NFL games.

Are you not a bit of a fickle fan? Do you attend games only when the team is doing good? As fans we also carry a responibility to these boys. When management has run amuck & the kids are wondering who will be dealt next and they look into empty stands, what motivation is left to hoist the flag and reclaim territory everyone from the owner out has abandoned, including you & me who then still chirp in anonimity. :confused:

[rebelfan]

Hope you guys' legs are good to go when it is time to get back on the bandwagon again! :)

Right now I would push the band wagon if I could. Truthful observations are not indications of jumping off a band wagon. They sometimes help wagons from rolling over if the drivers ever take a look around.

[/QUOTE]Jackson wouldn't have been the first of our defenseman that I would have parted with for sure, but his relative inexperience at this level, and his age (he will be 19 in 4 months) are probably what led them to move him. [/QUOTE]

If I am correct inexperience is supposed to be what makes us special this year... We are rebuilding are we not? Or what have I been hearing over and over? I doubt a 20 yr old for a rookie will help the rebuilding process too much.

[SectionNDeserter]

[I]Right now I would push the band wagon if I could. Truthful observations are not indications of jumping off a band wagon. They sometimes help wagons from rolling over if the drivers ever take a look around.Opinion doesn't necessarily equate to fact, but it is really good to hear that you are still supporting the team, rebuilding or not--unlike some others on this board.

If I am correct inexperience is supposed to be what makes us special this year...True enough, but if you can replace a player with one that is the same age, has similar or better levels of skill, and has a bit more experience, you make the deal. The point I am making is that they are not exactly stocking up on players that are at the ends of their WHL careers.

We are rebuilding are we not? Or what have I been hearing over and over? I doubt a 20 yr old for a rookie will help the rebuilding process too much.I don't know how anyone could possibly be asking if the Rebels are a rebuilding team at any time past the first month of this season. Trading overage/older players near the ends of their careers in the league for skilled players just beginning their careers, is the very essence of rebuilding a team. What would make for a better rebuilding team in your mind, acquiring 19 year olds for 20 year olds?

[Rebel66]

I had to laugh at SND's bandwagon comment. It's true though isn't it? Are you going to be staying at home watching American football when the Rebels are a contender again? Or if Sutter is still the owner is that still too tough to bear. Fair weather fans are an interesting breed for sure. I'm happy to support the boys this season. They're playing pretty hard most nights and deserve to have the fans backing, regardless of team management decisions.

[patsdude114]

Just wait til Valach gets comfortable with the Rebels you guys will be wishing you never got him, I didnt mind Valach when he 1st came to Regina either, but then as time went on he started to look like the worst Dman on our roster night in and night out. Yes he has a great shot from the point and can hold the line decently, but gets caught up the ice way to often, cant hit and his skating is not that great at all. He still has to grown into his long legs.

But if u Rebel fans want a Dman who can put the puck on net then you got the right guy. Just sying he'll hurt you more then he'll help you tho.

And theres alot to be said in the league for a guy who is in his 20yr old year who has been in the league since he was 17. Ya it might not make sence for the Rebels to take on another 20yr old when your rebuilding but the experience always helps and the league still wants Ofukany to get his full season in so he can recieve his full year of schooling for this season.

[Shinyshoes]

Ok, it took me a couple of days to digest everything that has been said in this thread, so here goes my best effort:

Charlie, the reason I said i was confused, was that Jackson for Valach seemed like it would be a fair trade, which means Regina thought Ofukany was only worth an upgrade in draft position by about a dozen positions. I think we did PHENOMINAL in that trade. Excellent job Randy Peterson & Co.

As for the theme of this thread, I somewhat agree, but somewhat disagree. I agree there has been too much player movement, and I believe the rebuilding cycle has been disrupted by about 3 years. I also contribute the bulk of this disruption to the Sutter connection.

This aside, I disagree with your opinion, Charlie, that there needs to be some changes, and somebody with a proven track record brought in. Now that the chances of Brandon Sutter winning a WHL/CHL title is pretty much out of the picture, the front office "seems" to have finally turned its attention to rebuilding. Landon Ferraro, Justin Wellar, and Brett Miller all 16 year olds currently on the team, and Red Deer has 11 prospects that played in the Mac's Midget tournament. Connor Redmond, Tory Wilfong, Dominic Perrault all expected to make the team next year, and couple that with another High draft pick this year (Looking like 2nd overall), and our future is looking good.

I know your hockey mind, Charlie, and respect it very much. Last season, I would have agreed with you. This year, however, I havn't seen a trade i wasn't dissapointed with. Not only helping our team now, but more importantly, in the future.

Junior hockey is cyclical, and typically speeking, the cycle lasts 8-10 years. unfortunatly, our build was slightly disrupted over the last 2-3 years, and we are looking like we will take 11-12 years to complete our cycle this time around, but the future is still very bright in Rebel land.

Charlie, As for that supper, when you and Red Celtic get that worked out, let me know, if you don't mind me tagging along.

[RDRebelsfan]

I had to laugh at SND's bandwagon comment. It's true though isn't it? Are you going to be staying at home watching American football when the Rebels are a contender again? Or if Sutter is still the owner is that still too tough to bear. Fair weather fans are an interesting breed for sure. I'm happy to support the boys this season. They're playing pretty hard most nights and deserve to have the fans backing, regardless of team management decisions.


never been one myself (bandwaggoner) in fact I've seen more games in the last 3 years than i had anytime previously. Though I'd often go as much as I could especially during rival games.

I'm with you there 66, all i ask is the team puts forth an effort and works hard, win or lose so i get my dollars worth.

[Tinner]

As far as being a "bandwagon" fan, nothing could be farther from the truth. Having been (and still are) a season ticket holder since day one, I attend my fair share of games. Unlike SectionN, I neither work for or am a fan of every move the Rebels make. I enjoy hockey, especially good hockey, and particularily hate poor, uninspired, undisiplined and (sorry) "pond" hockey. Now I realize that the old adage "there will be good times and bad times" holds true and you have to go with the flow, lately, its always a decision whether to attend or not because of other things going on. If the hockey was fun, good to watch, and there was a meaningful end, no doubt, I would be there. I sometimes feel while watching a game that the Rebels bring the other team down to their talent/skill level.

The frustrating part of the whole thing, in my opinion, is the direction the management is taking the team, or lack of direction. To tell every fan after we won the Cup that there would be a few years of rebuilding was expected as you build for that 1 chance. It has now been a few years and we still are rebuilding (or are we) and the expectation is still a couple of years away. Finally, the revolving door, as it were, is hard not only on the players, but the fans. Again, some trades work and others don't, but we have been on the ones that don't side a lot lately. Winning is everything, contrary to some opinions, and it puts butts in the seats, therefore losing must be the opposite. Is being a fan of hockey, and in this case, a fan of Rebels hockey mean more than being a supporter of hockey, including Rebel hockey, entitle anyone who doesn't attend regurlarily to be labeled "bandwagon"! Apparently to some! Heaven forbid if anyone shares their opinion (on a chat board set up for just that) and it is not the same as others, because we either would have to build a bigger rink to hold all those empty seats or a bigger rink for hockey supporters.

[SectionNDeserter]

I think that if you look back at all my posts, I certainly don't support all the moves the Rebels have made. Didn't like the Zetariuk trade, going back 4 or 5 seasons, I feel that poor scouting, particularly with defenseman forced us to build a blueline entirely out of players that had worn out their welcomes with their former teams, and were average at best. Other trades they have made, whether they always completely worked out or not, were always made to address some sort of need or weakness on the team. Is the scouting any better? I don't know the answer to that, guess we will have to wait and see. The top picks certainly seem to be good, but haven't seen a lot of later round steals in recent history, as well as a few that we clearly drafted too high.

A little optimism can go a long way. What I don't do, is criticize every move that the Rebels make, based on some blind hatred of the Sutter family as a whole. Bring in some qualified hockey people to run the team? Seems to me that the fellow we have coaching the team now has enjoyed some success coaching Sr. mens hockey of late after a full career in the NHL.... Oh yeah, and he has one of those Jack Adams awards... Is there someone available with more credentials that I don't know about?

I too like to watch good hockey, and it hasn't been all good this year for sure, but it hasn't been all bad either and there is a lot of hard workers on this team. There hasn't exactly been a ton of blowouts this year, and they have kept up with a few very good teams, in the absence of any sort of proven goal scorer and a handful of rookies at nearly every position. I have watched veteran Rebel teams (94-95) perform worse than the team they are currently icing.

I had a sinister motive when I made the "bandwagon" comment. And that was to make some of you take a personal inventory of yourself, and I think in some way what I have taken away from it is that some of you can still be a fan of the team without necessarily being a big fan of the management.

[charlie]

craig

we would love to join you for supper...give us a call. shiny you are welcome too.

shiny, i have never heard of 8-10 year cycles in junior hockey but i have been sitting here thinking about it and there may be some merit in your comment. i haven't checked any stats but there are some teams that come to mind about being on the bottom for that period of time. certainly the tigers before their current run were down about that period, lethbridge after maxwell left the same, tri-cities before bob tory, even spokane before this year...i'm sure there are others. hope that doesn't bode for the immediate future of the rebels. having siad all that some teams seem to defy that logic...the victoria/prince george cougars seem to be on a 20-25 year cycle and saskatoon...well did someone curse them in the late 60's lol.

cheers

[Rebrevs]

When you're at supper, toss this one around. Its going to take awhile to explain. Lets go back to the 2001 team. Up to this time Sutter's tactics as a coach are not questioned. Why? Because we're winning. It seems to tie into the fairweather fan thing. Because now, when we aren't a winning team, all the sudden Sutter is a tyrant. I can't see how he could have changed much from before.

Anyways, this was the first team Sutter built since he took over, right!? He had NO experience prior to this on how to handle the cyclical downswing that Shineyshoes mentions. The tail end of that team hung on for a few more years(Woywitka, Gordon). Phanuef, Fraser and Ward kept the team going until they left at the end of 2005. We lost to Med Hat in 2004 in the Eastern Final(not bad!!). In 2005, still with Phanuef, Ward and Fraser, we lost in the first round to Med Hat. The team was starting to get weaker by this time (as should be expected when you take in the cyclical effect of the draft) To enhance this weakness the 2002 draft was considered to be weak (Kurceba, Mercer etc)
Sutter began trading in 2004/5 to make up for some of these weaknesses and still stay competitive.

The following year (2005/06) was when things really started getting difficult. No more Phanuef, Ward or Fraser. These guys were going to be incredibly hard to replace. Think about the roles played by each of these young men (Phanuef and Ward especially)We, as fans were truely spoiled and perhaps developed very unrealistic expectations that everyone should be as good as they were. So now we are at the peak of our cyclical down swing. The 2001 draftees(where we were the last to pick) are now 19 and the the weak 2002 group are 18. We know the 2005/06 year is going to be tough but then, remember, the 2006/07 year will be tough too because of the weak 2002 draft year.

This, perhaps is where Sutter should have bitten the bullet and begun the process of rebuilding but instead continued to try to build a team through trading. I think it would be pretty hard for Sutter to, in essence, plan to lose. It would NOT be in his nature,I don't think, to make a decision to "go young". This was also his the first time he had to deal with the cyclical downswing. What experience would he be drawing from.

Sooooo, if you look at the 2001 draft as being weaker by the fact that we had last pick and the 2002 draft as being weaker that it should have been. And, if you look at Sutter pushing to produce a successful team, perhaps one year longer than he should have, it pretty well brings us to where we are.

Unfortunately, for Brandon, he joined the team durning this NATURAL downswing. I say unfortunately, because it gives the "I've got to watch a winning team only" fans what they consider to be a legitimate opportunity to vent their frustrations. Folks, its not legitimate. Its vicious and cruel.

Charlie, it hasn't been 10 years. It hasn't been even 8 years since we were a winning team. As I mentioned above, we were still competing hard in 2004/05. That was 3 years ago, not 8-10.

Is is possible that Sutter is a human being and can make questionable decisions? Who do you think put him up on the pedastal that doesn't allow him to be human? Is wasn't him. We, as fans, put he and his son up on a pedastal. We then, very arrogantly and as I said, sometimes viciously feel we then have the right to remove them from the pedastal WE put them on in the first place.

I, for, one will continue to attend games, no matter how much we lose. For the most part, these kids DO COMPETE. They and the organization WILL get better.

One other comment. We know the organization itself, has gone through a major change this year. Did we really honestly believe the change was going to go smoothly?

[Shinyshoes]

Sorry for the book you are about to read, but it is the only way to describe my argument.
Charlie, it hasn't been 10 years. It hasn't been even 8 years since we were a winning team. As I mentioned above, we were still competing hard in 2004/05. That was 3 years ago, not 8-10.
Rebrevs, your explanation of the cycle is excellent, and the full cycle does take 8-10 years to turn. Just so we are on the same page, I refer to the cycle as the time it takes from a team to go from competitive, to weak, and back to competitive. Not just the time from our last competative team, to the next one. I'm not saying a team has to lose for 8-10 years before they get a winning team.

Here is my best way of explaining it:

Let’s assume the team is a weak team.

Year 1:

Team does poorly, gets high draft pick(s).

Year 2:

The Kid(s) drafted in the off season is a 15 year old, therefore cannot play

Team does poorly again, Gets high draft pick.

Year 3:

Kid(s) from year 1 makes the team, but as a 16 year old, can only do so much......

Team does poorly again, Gets high draft pick

Year 4:

Year 1 kids, now 17, begin to help the team more, and kids from year 2 make the team as rookies....

Team does better, but still in the lower half of the league.

Year 5:

Tide starts to turn. Year 1 Kids are now 18, and the 17 and 16 year olds are also a higher caliber, due to the high draft picks in year 1-2-3. If the 18 year olds are truly exceptional, this may produce the first very successfull season.

Team finishes in the upper half of the league.

Year 6:

Finally!! Year 1 kids are now 19 year olds, with strong 18-17 year olds from year 2-3.
Team does well, gets poor draft pick

Year 7:

Some losses due to Year 1 kids graduating or turning pro. Still ice a good however, with strong 19-18 year olds (From year 2 and 3)

Team does well, gets poor draft pick.

Year 8:

More losses, same as last season. Stronger players are the remaining year 3 kids. Draft picks from year 4-5-6 can not replace what was lost, due to the lower picks those years....the decline begins, the trade deadline may produce trades of older players for future prospects or picks.

Team finishes in the middle/lower part of the league.

Obviously, Year 9 would be a repeat of year 1, thus, the cycle is complete, in 8 years. Obviously, you will get some anomalies, with gems that turn out of later rounds of the draft, trades, injuries, etc, but the basis of the cycle is still there.

The downturn of the cycle can also be extended if the team trades future draft picks in favor of "building up for a run".

I strongly believe the cycle lasts 8-10 years, and using the rebels as an example, i think we are in year 3ish. (which fits into rebrevs explanation that our last competitive seasons were '04 or '05.)


shiny, i have never heard of 8-10 year cycles in junior hockey but i have been sitting here thinking about it and there may be some merit in your comment. i haven't checked any stats but there are some teams that come to mind about being on the bottom for that period of time. certainly the tigers before their current run were down about that period, lethbridge after maxwell left the same, tri-cities before bob tory, even spokane before this year...i'm sure there are others.Correct. Remember when Bowmeester played for MH? In his entire WHL Career, he never saw a single playoff game....and look at them now....although they are nearing the end of their run, in my mind. Look at Kelowna. Went to the Memorial Cup 3 years in a row, and just this week, started selling (Nixon) to help build for the future. They are going to have a tough couple of years in front of them. Red Deer is the same. I think every team has had the drought before the build.....This just happens to be the peak of our drought.


having siad all that some teams seem to defy that logic...the victoria/prince george cougars seem to be on a 20-25 year cycle and saskatoon...well did someone curse them in the late 60's lol. cheers
The problem in a lot of those towns, Specifically PG, is that they have had numerous high draft picks either choose NCAA or just blatantly not report. Its tough to ice a good team when your stronger picks decide they don’t want to play for you.....

[RDRebelsfan]

shiny you're confusing kamloops with kelowna, kamloops traded nixon and not kelowna. kelowna had the down year last year, but seems to be quickly back on the rise again.

[Shinyshoes]

shiny you're confusing kamloops with kelowna, kamloops traded nixon and not kelowna. kelowna had the down year last year, but seems to be quickly back on the rise again. your right.... my bad

I write that gigantic post, and you have to pick at the one error huh?

[RDRebelsfan]

your right.... my bad

I write that gigantic post, and you have to pick at the one error huh?

yep! :) but better me than to have a Kamloops or Kelowna fan come by to nitpick.

Kamloops was a team this year that was projected to take the BC division, obviously not happening.

[SectionNDeserter]

certainly the tigers before their current run were down about that period, lethbridge after maxwell left the sameDid Maxwell just leave to pursue greener pastures, or did he get canned? They always seemed to have a more competitive team prior to his departure, and you never really hear any of the Lethbridge fans talk about him. I remember in the Simpson era, when I got to the rink an hour or so before the game, there was usually about 10 people there, and he would always come and BS with me before the game and inquire about how the team was doing. He had introduced himself as Bryan, and I always thought he was just some random Lethbridge fan, until about the 5th time I talked to him I realized that he was THAT Bryan. He was certainly very down to earth as far as WHL coaches/GMs go.

and saskatoon...well did someone curse them in the late 60's lol.Saskatoon had a decent team the season the Rebels entered the league (or at least a decent goalie, stupid Norm Maracle). They had most of the pieces of the puzzle 2 seasons ago, but didn't enjoy the playoff success they wanted I am sure.

I strongly believe the cycle lasts 8-10 years, and using the rebels as an example, i think we are in year 3ish. (which fits into rebrevs explanation that our last competitive seasons were '04 or '05.)I think your explanation of the cycle sounds about right, but certainly snooping out some late round gems or dynamic protected list additions that somehow fell through the cracks can sandwich a few surprise seasons in there. We haven't had one of those for a while. :(