attendence figures

[wardog fan]

i stumbled across this site and its pretty neat , i was looking at the whl attendence and the chl in general. i guess what stands out the most is im sure glad this isnt semi pro and free agency wow, would moose jaw,swift, pa , and pg would never be able to compete. my question is what is the minimal standard for the whl ? with three teams drawing less then 2500 a game and look at the bigger market teams drawing well over 5000 a game.
does the whl look at these attendence figures and actually consider pulling our franchises and moving them? i guess could they do that with poor attendence? these are update up till yesterday

Team Total Gm Avg PvsT Pvs Diff Pct
Brandon 94,814 23 4,122.4 92,716 4,031.1 +91.2 +2.26%
Calgary 193,215 24 8,050.6 177,322 7,709.7 +341.0 +4.42%
Chilliwack 97,880 22 4,449.1 95,851 4,356.9 +92.2 +2.12%
Edmonton 127,932 26 4,920.5 ---- ---- ---- ----
Everett 139,160 23 6,050.4 143,485 6,238.5 -188.0 -3.01%
Kamloops 105,095 23 4,569.4 110,022 4,783.6 -214.2 -4.48%
Kelowna 128,431 21 6,115.8 122,118 6,105.9 +9.9 +0.16%
Kootenay 66,013 22 3,000.6 65,470 2,975.9 +24.7 +0.83%
Lethbridge 93,698 25 3,747.9 87,083 3,628.5 +119.5 +3.29%
Medicine Hat 88,132 22 4,006.0 88,132 4,006.0 0 0
Moose Jaw 41,994 18 2,333.0 43,896 2,438.7 -105.7 -4.33%
Portland 93,852 24 3,910.5 113,398 4,724.9 -814.4 -17.24%
Prince Albert 50,653 24 2,110.5 52,194 2,174.8 -64.2 -2.95%
Prince George 63,297 22 2,877.1 64,464 2,930.2 -53.0 -1.81%
Red Deer 117,936 20 5,896.8 122,443 6,122.2 -225.4 -3.68%
Regina 121,255 25 4,850.2 111,377 4,455.1 +395.1 +8.87%
Saskatoon 82,786 20 4,139.3 79,062 3,953.1 +186.2 +4.71%
Seattle 78,326 21 3,729.8 80,841 3,849.6 -119.8 -3.11%
Spokane 135,286 22 6,149.4 119,839 5,447.2 +702.1 +12.89%
Swift Current 38,305 20 1,915.3 37,179 1,859.0 +56.3 +3.03% ******
Tri-City 97,754 24 4,073.1 89,114 3,713.1 +360.0 +9.70%
Vancouver 179,163 22 8,143.8 170,764 7,762.0 +381.8 +4.92%

WHL League 2,234,977 493 4,533.4 2,103,265 4,484.6 +48.8 +1.09%
under 2000 for a game average wow and yet up from last year...


Team Total Gm Avg PvsT Pvs Diff Pct
Acadie-Bathurst 50,647 23 2,202.0 53,056 2,306.8 -104.7 -4.54%
Baie-Comeau 49,498 23 2,152.1 51,347 2,232.5 -80.4 -3.60%
Cape Breton 75,068 24 3,127.8 73,766 3,073.6 +54.2 +1.76%
Chicoutimi 84,091 22 3,822.3 84,545 3,843.0 -20.6 -0.54%
Drummondville 56,547 25 2,261.9 62,378 2,495.1 -233.2 -9.35%
Gatineau 56,994 22 2,590.6 61,689 2,804.0 -213.4 -7.61%
Halifax 164,758 23 7,163.4 159,083 6,916.7 +246.7 +3.57%
Lewiston 55,643 23 2,419.3 58,955 2,563.3 -144.0 -5.62%
Moncton 89,528 24 3,730.3 107,096 4,462.3 -732.0 -16.40%
P.E.I. 43,792 19 2,304.8 46,940 2,470.5 -165.7 -6.71%
Quebec 225,818 22 10,264.5 206,983 9,408.3 +856.1 +9.10%
Rimouski 89,954 23 3,911.0 94,994 4,130.2 -219.1 -5.31%
Rouyn-Noranda 48,632 23 2,114.4 46,411 2,017.9 +96.6 +4.79%
Saint John 88,833 24 3,701.4 88,420 3,684.2 +17.2 +0.47%
Shawinigan 49,222 23 2,140.1 44,592 1,938.8 +201.3 +10.38%
St. John's 77,730 23 3,379.6 83,489 3,630.0 -250.4 -6.90%
Val-d'Or 43,289 22 1,967.7 45,004 2,045.6 -78.0 -3.81%
Victoriaville 57,329 25 2,293.2 50,828 2,033.1 +260.0 +12.79%

QMJHL League 1,407,373 413 3,407.7 1,443,388 3,494.9 -87.2 -2.50%



Team Total Gm Avg PvsT Pvs Diff Pct
Barrie 77,270 22 3,512.3 83,078 3,776.3 -264.0 -6.99%
Belleville 57,726 22 2,623.9 59,354 2,697.9 -74.0 -2.74%
Brampton 48,872 21 2,327.2 48,090 2,290.0 +37.2 +1.63%
Erie 61,949 18 3,441.6 62,061 3,447.8 -6.2 -0.18%
Guelph 89,519 22 4,069.1 89,978 4,089.9 -20.9 -0.51%
Kingston 35,153 18 1,952.9 40,048 2,224.9 -271.9 -12.22%
Kitchener 130,862 22 5,948.3 127,788 5,808.5 +139.7 +2.41%
London 216,164 24 9,006.8 216,266 9,011.1 -4.3 -0.05%
Mississauga** 39,427 21 1,877.5 43,884 2,089.7 -212.2 -10.16%
Niagara 53,504 21 2,547.8 ---- ---- ---- ----
Oshawa 110,900 23 4,821.7 93,557 4,067.7 +754.0 +18.54%
Ottawa 181,101 23 7,874.0 182,022 7,914.0 -40.0 -0.51%
Owen Sound 46,213 19 2,432.3 53,114 2,795.5 -363.2 -12.99%
Peterborough 57,145 19 3,007.6 60,183 3,167.5 -159.9 -5.05%
Plymouth 53,198 21 2,533.2 55,749 2,654.7 -121.5 -4.58%
Saginaw 71,421 19 3,759.0 73,472 3,866.9 -107.9 -2.79%
Sarnia 76,459 21 3,640.9 70,345 3,349.8 +291.1 +8.69%
Sault Ste. Marie 101,642 22 4,620.1 98,709 4,486.8 +133.3 +2.97%
Sudbury 83,536 21 3,977.9 90,434 4,306.4 -328.5 -7.63%
Windsor 66,630 21 3,172.9 62,954 2,997.8 +175.1 +5.84%

OHL League 1,658,691 420 3,949.3 1,602,322 3,815.1 +134.2 +3.52%

[TwoBits]

i stumbled across this site and its pretty neat , i was looking at the whl attendence and the chl in general. i guess what stands out the most is im sure glad this isnt semi pro and free agency wow, would moose jaw,swift, pa , and pg would never be able to compete. my question is what is the minimal standard for the whl ? with three teams drawing less then 2500 a game and look at the bigger market teams drawing well over 5000 a game.
does the whl look at these attendence figures and actually consider pulling our franchises and moving them? i guess could they do that with poor attendence? these are update up till yesterday


How do you fairly compare a place the size of Vancouver to a place the size of Prince Albert. I think the Art Hauser Centre only holds 3000-3500 people. I read in the Raider Forum that PA is making money, so isn't that the bottom line. It probably all averages out in the long run, Vancouver needs that attendance because their costs are going to be higher.

Don't small market people deserve to see good hockey too?

[wardog fan]

i agree with you im not saying anything negative towards, im in moose jaw . but it scares me somewhat how big this league is getting and i look at our own rink here in the jaw and 2200 for a team whos doing good? and swift averaging 1900 they have a good team and pa is struggling and they are averageing 2300 . i was just bringing up a point? and asking does the whl look on this and call us the have nots and want us to succeed or fail or what?

[TwoBits]

You'd think it'd be up to the individual owners of each team. I guess if they want to stay in a market where they continually lose money, that's up to them. The league would probably only get involved if a team wanted to move or if someone wanted to form another expansion team. They would probably try to ensure the team would go to a location that could support a team.

I think every team knows how many butts they need in the seats each night to break even. Wouldn't that be interesting to know? Can you find those stats for us? :laugh:

[wardog fan]

i agree with ya and pg is owned by a owner, where the three teams here in saskatchewan are community owned which fears me some as well. moose jaw, swift and pa are all runned by a elected board. but its safe to say that all three teams have been in this league for a long time and made it thus far, but i see the league average go up more and more every 5 years and it just makes someone wonder what the league thinks of the three community owned teams.. and league costs are going up for everyone, travel, and scholorships are out of control, but yet we need it to succeed.

[TwoBits]

I think there would be an uprising if anyone tried to move one of those teams. :laugh: Isn't that why they are community owned? The community would have to want to give 'em the boot. Can't see that happening.

Yes, those costs you mentioned are pretty much standard across the board but the costs of the "crushed can" and the Art Hauser Centre have got to be much less than what Vancouver has to pay just to turn on the lights.

[bruinsr#1]

http://www.mib.org/~lennier/hockey/leagueatt.cgi

is this where you found the attendances?

[TwoBits]

Hey Wardog fan, look at the stickies in this forum. I thought the topic sounded a little familiar. :laugh: Although ours had a bit of a different perspective. I would still love to know how many customers each team needs per night to pay their operating costs. I'm sure I read what Vancouvers was on their forum last year during the playoffs and I did hear Saskatoon's number once upon a time but can't remember now. Can anybody help us out?

[TwoBits]

I was poking around the web searching for the answer to my question and found this article. It's interesting but not exactly what I was looking for. Have you seen this Brandon Fans?

http://www.manitobabusinessmagazine.com/DecemberCover06.shtml


McCrimmons Legacy
Inside the Brandon Wheat Kings

By Angela Lovell

Brandon, Manitoba - Even at 46, Kelly McCrimmon has a typical hockey player swagger.

Its a totally unconscious imprint that the years skating leaves on their gait.

It also leaves no doubt as to the credentials of the coach, General Manager and owner of the Brandon Wheat Kings, a former Western Hockey League and Canadian Hockey League Executive of the Year.

Under McCrimmons tutelage the Wheat Kings has become one of the most successful junior hockey franchises in the Western Hockey League (WHL).

Since '92-93, the Wheat Kings have qualified for post-season play in thirteen of fourteen years. They have won six division pennants, four Conference titles, four trips to the league championship final and taken home the President's Cup in 1996. The hockey franchise as a business is a pretty unique enterprise.

When most of your assets are people and your product is their performance, it makes for an interesting balance sheet. And increasing profits isnt as easy as simply selling more products. Although revenue streams include percentages of concession sales, sponsorship, fund-raisers and agreements with the National Hockey League for drafted players, it is still ticket sales that determine the bottom line.

Its about getting people into those seats, says McCrimmon. The Wheat Kings, who are celebrating their 40-year anniversary this year, have averaged attendances of 3,200 to 3,500 people for home games.

With the Keystone Centre Arena able to handle just over 5,000 the goal is to average 4,000 per game and add a few sells-outs.

There are very few nights when you cant walk up to the Keystone Centre box office and buy a ticket and we need to get to the point where some nights you cant, so now its important to be a season ticket holder, says McCrimmon.

The Wheat Kings are a far cry from the dilapidated team that he took over in 1989 at the young age of 28. There followed a challenging time for the unproven McCrimmon in his first major role in junior hockey.

Part of improving was we were first going to get worse before we got better, recalls McCrimmon. In his first three years the team never made the play-offs and had one eleven-win season, which was almost unheard of in the WHL.

That stretch of time was probably the most challenging we have ever had here, but in hindsight it was a very important stage in the development of the organization.

Its been quite an achievement for this ex-junior hockey player, who graduated from the University of Michigan with a business degree with the intention of returning to the family farm near Rosetown, about 140 kilometres. south west of Saskatoon in Saskatchewan.

As a younger person I thought there were more secure ways to make a living than the hockey business, says McCrimmon.

Obviously he changed his mind, becoming one-third owner of the Wheat Kings in 1992 and eventually purchasing the remainder of the club from Bob Cornell eight years later.

McCrimmon is now as comfortable in his polished, yet modest office as he is on the care-worn benches of the players box. His hands-on approach helps him deal with the multiple demands of his different roles.

As a coach and manager, because I am in touch with the players, I am very straight up with them, he says. Our team comes first and I will step away personally from a decision and measure it against what is best for the Brandon Wheat Kings.

Those decisions arent always black and white. Smaller franchises like Medicine Hat in Alberta routinely play to sold-out crowds and have a 4,000-name waiting list for season tickets.

Its a level of support that McCrimmon knows takes time to build. That is why he has focused on recruiting families as fans for the future.

We try to keep childrens tickets affordable and thats a real long-term initiative, he says. Over time you are going to have people who grew up in Brandon and the Wheat Kings were part of their life and you have a chance to keep those people or get them back at some point.

Marketing efforts have to sometimes be risky. In a further effort to boost season ticket sales, McCrimmon took a gamble on reducing season ticket prices this year from $375 to $250. We put our money where our mouth was, says McCrimmon. We made junior hockey more affordable in Brandon, Manitoba than anywhere else in the country by forty or fifty percent.

So far the gamble seems to be paying off, with another 1,000 seats full for the season.

The WHL includes some premier franchises like Vancouver, Calgary and Edmonton, as well as strong US markets like Spokane and Portland. That can make it tough for smaller-market clubs like the Wheat Kings to remain viable.

The bar is being raised in an ongoing manner in terms of the type of organization you want for your players.

Although players receive stipends that are set by the league, there are nuances from club to club that include how they travel, off-ice training opportunities, work-out rooms and locker rooms with various degrees of comfort.

You have to give players the best chance to get better, says McCrimmon. You have to make sure that you provide whatever those things are that they need to do that.

The other side of the marketing challenge is to provide a product that people actually want to watch.

The challenge in the hockey business is you have to have a competitive on-ice product or you lose the casual fan, says McCrimmon.

When that product consists of twenty-four teenagers, ranging from 16 to 20 years of age, most juggling school and hockey, whos emotional and physical state at any given point influences the end result, its not easy to achieve the consistency that keeps the stands full.

And consistency is a key element in bringing the crowds back night after night. Few teams in the WHL have won as many games over the past ten years as the Wheat Kings. But that consistency takes a lot of work from the top down.

How organizations deal with these guys just as people I think is what leaves your best mark on players, says McCrimmon. Youve got to show them how much you care before you show them how much you know.

Hockey can be a fickle business, governed as much by perceptions as tangible realities.

Marketing the Wheat Kings, as a result, is a lot about selling its persona and community involvement is a hugely important element of that. Wheat Kings players routinely show up at schools, charity functions and events, and it is something that McCrimmon believes develops valuable social skills.

I think thats a really important part of their development and you see the change in them, says McCrimmon. When they go out to do a player appearance at seventeen years old they are a shy as the kids are and yet in time they really grow into it.

Just how much the Wheat Kings mean to the economy of Brandon is hard to quantify, but as part of the entertainment scene it plays its part well.

Patty Griffith who is general manager of the 500,000-sq. ft. Keystone Centre says, Our major tenants are vital to our operations. The entire community is much better because we have the Wheat Kings and the Provincial Exhibition (Brandon Winter Fair).

A 2003 economic impact analysis commissioned by the Keystone Centre estimated that non-local day-trippers accounted for 30% of the attendance at events throughout the year. Of those, 70% had come specifically for a Keystone event, and their combined daily expenditures while in Brandon totaled $1.5 million. The Wheat Kings can certainly claim to be a part of that economic gain.

There are few businesses where sweat equity is quite such an apt term as in hockey. McCrimmon probably loses a couple of pounds during every game, and with WHL franchises selling anywhere from $3.5 million to $5 million one might suspect hed be tempted to cash out his investment and go back to the farm.

But that doesnt seem to be on the cards anytime soon. Hockey will always be part of life for McCrimmon, who, at 46 still enjoys every aspect of the game, even riding the bus.

Its part of being with a hockey team, he says. To this day I still love riding the bus.

And for now, at least, Kelly McCrimmon is not just along for the ride.

[kaniksu]

I remember this being brought up in the Tri-Cities before. I believe it was around the time Porter was trying to move the team but I cannot really recall if it was before or after.

It was said that the Ams needed to average 3,000 fans a night for the team to make a profit. And according to the link posted above they are doing it with an average of 4,073.1 per game.

It helps when you are having a winning season. But overall attendance has been up, including a 17% jump after the ownership change.

[TwoBits]

Kaniksu:


It was said that the Ams needed to average 3,000 fans a night for the team to make a profit. And according to the link posted above they are doing it with an average of 4,073.1 per game.

I think that is the number I heard for Saskatoon. Brandon must be smiling too, their goal was an average of 4000 and they are above that.

These are all mid-size markets, it would be interesting to know the numbers for the large and small ones.

[old_time_hockey]

Kaniksu:



I think that is the number I heard for Saskatoon. Brandon must be smiling too, their goal was an average of 4000 and they are above that.

These are all mid-size markets, it would be interesting to know the numbers for the large and small ones.

I think more the question is what % of capacity do teams average. Like in MH, their barn only holds 4006. But they constantly are sold out. Same as Kelowna. They are always at least 90% full with a rink that holds 6000+change.

But even then...In Vancouver an official sell out is 7500 when they have most of the upper bowl blocked off with curtain. Get the odd crowd of 6400 or so. Mostly when the visiting team isn't someone that some people want to watch. But with the games leading up to Christmas and after we were getting crowds in the high 8000 range to 9500. So at the end of the year that stat would be over 100% :laugh:

[TwoBits]

Hey Old Time have you ever heard what your break-even # is? You would think it would be a little higher in Vancouver, your arena costs have got to be higher there. I'm positive I read your #s somewhere last year during the playoffs. Probably when someone suggested that Vancouver share the wealth. :D

[wango tango]

http://www.manitobabusinessmagazine.com/DecemberCover06.shtml

things i found interesting...

Marketing efforts have to sometimes be risky. In a further effort to boost season ticket sales, McCrimmon took a gamble on reducing season ticket prices this year from $375 to $250. We put our money where our mouth was, says McCrimmon. We made junior hockey more affordable in Brandon, Manitoba than anywhere else in the country by forty or fifty percent.

other teams in the league might do well to notice the results.

The WHL includes some premier franchises like Vancouver, Calgary and Edmonton, as well as strong US markets like Spokane and Portland. That can make it tough for smaller-market clubs like the Wheat Kings to remain viable.

The bar is being raised in an ongoing manner in terms of the type of organization you want for your players.

Although players receive stipends that are set by the league, there are nuances from club to club that include how they travel, off-ice training opportunities, work-out rooms and locker rooms with various degrees of comfort.

vancouver, for example, has its own training facility, team owned bus, flies when allowed, injured players are able to take advantage of the canucks injury skate times (this also happens in calgary and edmonton). there are many little things that other teams in the whl would do well to note, and if they want to not only compete, but succeed at a high level, then these 'comforts' have to be addressed.

[TwoBits]

Yes, I guess the goal should be more than to just break even. Those nuances are important to get players, keep players, and improve the team. I've never heard of any players refusing to report to Vancouver, Edmonton or Calgary. Have you? :)

Do you think Wardog Fan needs to worry about the small market teams in Saskatchewan being moved to greener pastures?

[Roger]

[QUOTE=TwoBits]I was poking around the web searching for the answer to my question and found this article. It's interesting but not exactly what I was looking for. Have you seen this Brandon Fans?
The year that we missed the playoffs was because we had rediculous amount of injuries happen that year in fact there where games that we only iced 12
skaters.Lost over 500 man games that year .Also if we would have beat MJ in our last game during regulation time instead of losing in ot we would have been in and MJ would have been out it was that close.That MJ game was my first game ever in another barn.KM does a heck of a job for us fans here in Brandon but a lot of fans just don't see it that way.Can't even sell 3000 season tickets at the reduced priced sad really IMO.