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View Full Version : Giants 2 Wheat Kings 3 - Oct 24, 2012



dondo
10-25-2012, 02:33 AM
This game made me angry. Chances squandered, lack of focus and wasting a solid golatending performance that actually gave them a shot at winning. far too many fly-bys that should have been hits and many dumb passes.


Wheaties Shred Giants
Vancouver 2 Brandon 3

Payton Lee was called up from the Richmond Sockeyes for tonight’s start and he gave his team a great chance to get a win, only to be hung out to dry by a bunch of lazy, soft players doing their laundry. The Giants opened the scoring only to allow three unanswered once again putting themselves in a hole. They got one back, but the passenger quotient tonight made me very angry. I watched fly-bys that should have been hits, players giving up far too easily on the puck opting to wave their sticks ineffectually instead of taking the body and poor passes made into traffic.

The boys seemed to lack the confidence to take the shot and not until the third did they actually create some real energy. Most of the game was one of Don Hay’s “team lulls” and the intensity after losing 4 straight was frankly unacceptable. Dalton Sward was one of the few with energy and he was squandered playing in a wholly ineffectual third line role, his only points coming on the PP. This game was extremely frustrating as I watched players give up far too easily, choose not to battle, lose face-offs and allow themselves to be effortlessly stripped of the puck. Sadly it was one the few games where I did not witness any future positives, other than maybe Lee. I saw a team beating themselves, making poor decisions and lacking the confidence to play to their ability. For example: Cain Franson failed to make a saucer pass for an open net look (on a 2 on 1), something we all know he can do in his sleep and a play he had time and space to make. Instead he put it off the defender’s stick when he bobbled it looking rattled as he tried the maneuver. Instead of galvanizing the team, their recent losses have taken a toll on the team’s confidence. It appears as if they expect to lose and willing to accept a loss and that is never good. They finally get goaltending that should give them a chance to win and they squander it on the PK and by not willing to pay the price at either end of the arena to get the win. A win they desperately need.

The Giants opened the scoring just over 2 minutes into the game. Jackson Houck put a loose puck in front past Corbin Boes. Marek Tvrdon held possession, throwing the puck at the net. The puck was either kicked out by Boes or hit someone in front and Houck made no mistake. The Giants had chances to extend their lead, but could not bury their chances. Boes spent almost the entire game scrambling on his knees and was very good down low, but the G’s failed to get it up where there was a ton of space to put a puck. The home squad was badly out shot in the first two periods closing that gap in the third. The boys sleepwalked through the second period, allowing a goal against by failing to shut down a lane. They did not press in the third until they were behind, coughing up back-to-back PP markers against. Victims of a bit of bad puck luck they also didn’t do themselves any favours in their own end of the ice and the hunger that was evident in the first two kills, went AWOL in the last two. The G’s made it close on the PP with Brett Kulak pouncing on a loose puck, wheeling and firing in the slot. Houck and Sward had the helpers. With the goalie pulled and a couple of seconds left, the Wheatie player collapsed on the puck off of the face-off. Clearly delay of game, but it made no difference as the clock ticked down before the arm could come up. This coming after a nasty elbow to the head by a Brandon player on Franson(?). The player was given a major and game, but with 25 seconds left it didn’t make much difference. A deliberate and cowardly act, it could warrant a suspension.

Team Notes: Thomas Foster who was a plus and positive player on Saturday was scratched in this one. Carter Popoff was also scratched and I don’t recall seeing Riley Kieser out there either. Moar, Coyle and Vetterl were back in the line-up. The G’s have now lost 5 straight and don’t look to be capable of winning any time soon. They remain mired at the bottom of the entire CHL with two wins, no ties, no OTLs no SOLs and 9 losses – 2-9-0-0. Let’s hope they won’t be like the Sherbrooke, Phoenix in the Q who have 5 pts in 14 games played. I cannot recall a record this bad for the G’s or to have seen them at the bottom of the WHL let alone the CHL. They are broken, the parts are capable but they lack someone willing to step-up and take the team to a positive place. They also lack any sort of chemistry and continuity. The team has struggled with bad goaltending, but tonight that was not an excuse. They will need to look at themselves in the mirror and decide if they are wiling to pay the price at both ends of the ice for the full sixty minutes for more than just a game here and there. It is up to them, only they can change this. Liam Liston was the back-up to Lee tonight. Lee is scheduled to play for the Sockeyes on Friday.

Fisitcuffs: nada – and this game could have used some if only to get the crowd more involved.

Zebra Cage: Ryan Benbow and Mark Pearce – pretty sucky outing by both. Benbow indicated a goal that the goal judge didn’t acknowledge and which clearly went off the bar in the replay. Early he seemed decent and then made a few of what I considered to be reactive soft calls off of what appeared to be incidental contact. Pearce made some suspect calls as well. A quick whistle late blowing down play when the puck was still clearly loose added a bit of salt in the wounds.

The Giants out shot the Wheaties 29-28, using a third period 15-shot outburst to edge out the visitors. The G’s went 1 for 4 on the PP, but gave up 2 on 4 chances to the Wheat Kings. Sward and Houck seemed to be the only two forwards to show up tonight. Poor, low percentage passes continued to be the norm unfortunately. The G’s did not have great puck support for most of the game and were forced to make longer than necessary passes because of it. Their first two PKs looked very solid, hustling down loose pucks and getting in the face of the Wheaties puck carrier. The last two had guys taking shortcuts and leaving far too many people open. 16 yr old Payton Lee held his team in early and looked very solid and calm between the pipes as well as handling the puck. He had a bit of bad luck on the PP markers, both of which deflected in front, popping loose.

I have yet to see this team play a full 60 minutes this season, but when they got close to that commitment they got their wins. I am seeing too many lazy players who don’t seem willing to put in the effort required to win in this league other than some potent bursts usually coming when they are well behind. The guys seem to be content with the way they are playing and forging a culture of losing that they must reverse ASAP and that all starts with commitment and smart supportive effort. Friday they take on the Royals who have had their number so far in the three games these two teams have already played.

The G-Men desperately need a win and they need to earn it and work for it from the drop of the puck. I for one am tired of seeing skilled players playing well below their skill level while floating and gliding about the ice. Hunger, effort and sacrifice are the only things that will get them out of their own fetid swamp. One thing that might add some fire to the line-up at least is that Friday is expected to be Kale Kessy’s first night in a Giants jersey. Kessy can be a loose cannon, but he can also be a feared power forward who would rather go through you, than around you. He plays an aggressive intimidating game and if he can stay on the right side of the officials he could be effective. If he doesn’t his PK-challenged team is in for a long night. Musil should never have got a star nod. It should have gone to the Wheaties and more-so to former PG Cougar, Nick Buonassisi – who had two goals on the night. Puck on Friday drops at 7:30 PDT.

Three Stars

1. Corbin Boes
2. Payton Lee
3. David Musil

Dondo’s Hardhat: goes to… Dalton Sward - only one assist, but more because he was the only player who put in full effort every time he jumped over the boards. He was hampered playing on the third line tonight in my mind and should have been moved up later in the game when it was clear he was one of the few willing to pay the price. Frankly I’d love to see Tvrdon play third line minutes learn a better two-way game and learn how to use the grinders to their best ability.

newwestgiant
10-25-2012, 07:53 AM
Disagree with a lot of the points you make (for one thing I also thought that puck went into the net and didn't realize it didn't until I saw the replay, which to me means the ref got it right by going to the video replay. Not sure why we still have goal judges in modern hockey. I never see ref's consult them, that's what video replay is for) but I definitely share your frustration.

I thought the boys played better tonight then did against Calgary and certainly didn't quit the way they did against Calgary. Tvrdon played better - I even saw him back check a couple of times! (he still doesn't belong on the point on the PP. Nor does Franson who if anything is an even worse choice to put back there) The PK is still a source of frustration and it is clear that the boys lack of confidence - something that only some wins is going to turn around. Lee didn't play any better or worse that Fuhr has lately. The only difference is that the Giants didn't give up the number of quality opportunities tonight that they usually do. The first goal was very soft as was the third (albeit in the PP). That said I have no issue with Lee being called up though I hate that Fuhr was the goalie that wasn't dressed - shades of Whistle all over again. Which brings me to what I believe is the Giants real problem:

Don Hay

The Coach has brought us a WHL championship and a memorial cup and for that deserves praise, gratitude and a spot in our ring of honour but even the best coaches eventually stay too long. Our core problems to me are all coaching issues: terrible special teams (this has been going on for a couple of seasons), the team quitting on him during games, and lack of player development. Look at the players who have improved by leaving Vancouver the last couple of seasons - the only player to my mind whose play has improved upon arriving in Vancouver was Spencer Bennett (and even that could be a reflection of a player taking advantage of more ice time when he leaves a talent rich organization i.e just like Cheek this year). Players like Musil, Kulak, and Burns have never really fulfilled the promise they showed as 16 years old. A lot of that is on the individual players but it also reflects on the Coach and organization. I don;t understand how players are being rotated out of the line up. Foster plays well against Calgary, hustles and scores a goal with limited ice time and then is out of the line up next game. Vetterl is given a shut down role against Shikaruk in the Tigers game and does a great job, he picks up a point against Spokane and then is out of the line up. Meanwhile border line older players like Moar and Siebens are in the line up almost every night and make no contribution. It really feels like there is a blind spot when it comes to young players versus older ones.And the handling of Tucker, Whistle and possibly Fuhr would make me dread being drafted by the Giants if I was a young goalie.

All these things suggest to me that it is time for a coaching change. This is not all Hay's fault. The players have to hold their hands up for their poor efforts and Bonner has made some very poor trades and drafted poorly ( to be fair to a certain extent we are victims of our own success - high finishes mean low draft picks). But when you look at organizations like Kelowna and Calgary and their ability to develop young players and our own failure to do so (Chucky and Gally are probably our only two recent successes) and you realize that someone has to point out that the emperor has no clothes. It is time for a change.

Bocephus
10-25-2012, 12:26 PM
Just looked at the stats for jamie Tucker on hockeydb. Crazy. Went from 1.41 GAA in 22 games to 4 years later in a league lower with a GAA nearing 4! Jesus!

Lucic
10-25-2012, 02:27 PM
Lee didn't play any better or worse that Fuhr has lately. The only difference is that the Giants didn't give up the number of quality opportunities tonight that they usually do.

I definitely disagree. Lee had the best goaltending performance of the season for the Giants. I realize that doesn't say a whole lot this season, but he was without a doubt better than what we've seen from Fuhr. And by no means is that intended to be a knock on Fuhr. I liked what I've seen from him as well. And for the life of me I cannot understand why the Giants don't just keep Lee and Fuhr and let the young guys rotate in net for the rest of the season. There is absolutely no point in keeping Liston around. And Lee is good enough to play at this level. He's too good for Junior B.


That said I have no issue with Lee being called up though I hate that Fuhr was the goalie that wasn't dressed - shades of Whistle all over again.

It would only be shades of Whistle if the Giants had a veteran goaltender they continuously played instead of giving him playing time to develop. As of now, Fuhr is unofficially the number one goalie on the team. Rotating two young goaltenders like Lee and Fuhr is not the same thing by any means.


I don;t understand how players are being rotated out of the line up. Foster plays well against Calgary, hustles and scores a goal with limited ice time and then is out of the line up next game. Vetterl is given a shut down role against Shikaruk in the Tigers game and does a great job, he picks up a point against Spokane and then is out of the line up. Meanwhile border line older players like Moar and Siebens are in the line up almost every night and make no contribution.

A couple of things:

The Giants have too many bodies. Players have to be rotated in and out of the line up because of that. And Don Hay typically sits out rookies regardless of how well they perform. In my opinion, I agree with you, I would rather see the young guys like Foster and Vickerman play more consistently. But until a few players can be shipped out that doesn't appear to be a viable scenario.

Personally I'm glad Vetterl is sitting out. Don Hay played the hell out of him last season and I could never understand why. This team has been full of Vetterl types for the past couple of years. Small soft decent utility players. You make reference to Moar and Sieben being "older" players when they are the same age as Vetterl. And I also disagree about Moar's contributions. He has been a nice pick up, IMO. For starters he has size, something this team has been severely lacking. He's played physical, dropped the mitts a few times and he was even used on the PK last night. His versatility being able to play forward and defense is an even added bonus. I'm not a big fan of Sieben but I feel Moar as been a good addition.

Anyway I do share a lot of your frustration and believe me, I've felt Hay has been part of the problem for a few years now. He can be very stubborn and once he forms an opinion on a specific player that isn't going to change. But at the end of the day, Don Hay isn't going anywhere unless Don Hay decides he wants out. And I don't see that happening anytime soon.

Knuckles Muldoon
10-25-2012, 04:10 PM
I agree with the too many bodies thing. A couple have to go. I would decide between Keiser and Vetterl and ship one out. Vetterl is a year younger, so I'd probably move out Keiser. Then again between Moar and Sieben. Moar is gritty, but he's also a pretty poor player. And with Kessy coming in now, move Moar out of here. I would imagine once Atwal is fit to play, the team will make a move on defense. Coyle seems to be the odd man out....can't comment much there, haven't seen him play. Zalitach is sitting out too many games for my liking. And yeah, I'd go with Lee/Fuhr and ship Out Goes Liston!

Of course, this is all until trade deadline when we see some real action.

dondo
10-25-2012, 06:02 PM
The sad thing is that we lost a bunch of picks on players that have not brought the kind of impact they were intended to have. It felt as if we were duplicating in some cases and acquiring Sieben made no sense to me - we already have Popoff and Ast filling those kinds of roles -- I was expecting a small intense Henry type, with that kind of offensive upside and that is not what we got.

It makes me think that our scouting budget was slashed in recent years and that the G's are taking flyers on players not really knowing their history or actual potential - and that includes injury history. It started with Niebrandt. They had to have known he played that soft, was that slow and unmotivated wouldn't they? Or was he turned that way by the current brain trust?

I still say that we played a softer game versus the Wheaties than we did the Hitmen. Details that were being taken care of in the Hitmen game were lost in this one. A lot fewer players taking the body than versus Calgary and less quality scoring chances due to a visible panic aura.

Last night there was a pervasive lack of confidence, lack of effort and the boys sabotaged themselves making passes when they should have been shooting. I recall many occasions where they had an open look and tried to jam a pass through defenders instead of putting it on the net and going for the rebound. The team looked rattled and lacking chemistry. Vanwoozinhoozin is also not playing or acting like a leader in my observation.

I agree that we need to divest ourselves of the extra bodies as they are muddying the waters. I would keep the bigger bodies for the role players though as we have been pushed around for a few years. So Moar over Sieben for my money. Tyler Morrison is doing very little for me right now, but then he's 17 - however given the choice I would be playing Zalitach over Morrison.

It also might be a matter of the guys haven't really decided (or been given the chance) to gel and part of that is the juggling of lines so that no chemistry forms. I liked Houck Cheek and Tvrdon and felt they had some chemistry and Sward, Burns and Franson looked good as well - but Ast has been slotted in (and I like Ast a lot), Sward moved down and Franson played one of his poorest games and looked the most rattled of all of the top six. I like Franson as well, but he is capable of more.

It's still early and 1/8th of the way through the season, but I felt that the Giants got the goaltending they were looking for that gave them a chance to win and then opted phone it in. A great example is that the crowd last night was rarely into the game (except me - I was risking cardiac arrest trying to get the boys to play hungrier), yet even when the G's were behind in the other home games, they were generating arena excitement by forechecking hard and laying the body with regularity. Last night no Go Giants Go chants until the very end and no waves. The intensity on the ice translates to the crowd, but the boys did nothing consistently to excite the crowd. The crowd damn near exploded on the Giants second goal that brought them within one. They wanted to cheer and it was up to the team to drive the fans to get involved.

All of this might go away if the Giants were not cellar dwellers in both special teams categories (a first since I have been a season ticket holder) Brandon was a beatable team and we let them off the hook. PK is about effort and we have seen how effective that has been (soft 'tending is also at fault). PP is about moving the puck quickly and rotating to earn open ice and the Giants have a static PP that doesnt seem to know how to `work the man-advantage.

I`d also go Lee/Fuhr as Liston does not add much more than either of thsoe guys and to be honest I think the team knew this during the pre-season, but went with Liston anyway. Whistle has great numbers so far and as said above Tucker is making his way as well. I suspect that the Giants are not very good at assessing goaltenders on top of insisting the "starter" play regardless of how well he is playing.

Priceisright
10-25-2012, 07:58 PM
All I have to say are two things observed so far this year. Tvrdon is a passenger. Lazy on the defensive part of the game. And I never liked musil. I think he's highly over rated. Can't wait to see these guys traded at some point this year . :)

I did like the goaltending. Other than the one soft goal Payton looked pretty solid.