Start of the season

[Rebelsfan13]

The Rebels had a good start to the season until they went on the road to Calgary. That game was awful. If it were the old days I am sure Sutter would have had them keep their equipment on for the bus ride home. I get they were coming off a game the night before but they looked beat out there, couldn't win a single battle and couldn't hit a fly. The only player from my perspective that was noticeable the entire game was Mpofu.

[peatfan]

Yes I agree that Mpofu was the most noticeable Rebel. Pawlenchuk & Dixon also had good moments but overall a bad showing by Red Deer. Especially Bartosak who let in two bad goals.
Yeah I could see Coach Sutter making the players to keep their uniforms on. Still the best coach in junior hockey and I'm sur ethe next visit here will be a closer games (with the Hitmen still winning)

[JMoney1988]

Tough loss for you guys tonight, quick question, did anyone catch the Valcourt incident and was it bad or did he do accidental contact?
Thanks for the info

[SectionNDeserter]

Tough loss for you guys tonight, quick question, did anyone catch the Valcourt incident and was it bad or did he do accidental contact?
Thanks for the infoHe probably could have passed it off as accidental contact if he hadn't raised his knee up to make sure he caught Bartosak in the head, I assume that is where the major came into play.

It is really going to change the team's direction (as it did two years ago) if Bartosak is out for any length of time.

[JMoney1988]

Okay, so would that a suspendable offense, but hopefully he is alright and comes back soon

[calcheyup]

Aside from some brief stretches, this season has been an unmitigated disaster. Clearly nobody expected this team to be competing in the top echelon of the conference, but trailing the likes of Kootenay, Regina, Brandon, and even PA is just unacceptable given what this roster is capable of. Take away Bartosak, and we're looking at the Lethbridge Hurricanes out there. Awful home losses to Brandon and Moose Jaw recently after playing their best game of the year vs Calgary and stealing one from Edmonton. This team is nowhere near good enough to be able to take a club like the Warriors (or the Hurricanes for that matter) for granted and still win. Some really abhorrent efforts against Lethy this year too now that I think of it.

At the start of the year I felt that the Rebels would be in a similar position as last year, the 4-5 range. It's still possible, obviously, but not with the inconsistency they are playing with. They are even more (!!) reliant on Bartosak than last year, and if he has anything but his absolute best game you can pretty much chalk it up as a loss. If this continues towards the deadline, I'm totally in favor of Brent getting what he can for Bartosak and, to a lesser extent, Dieno, and look ahead to next season. If they can get a decent goalie for next year and shore up the back end, there's no reason why this couldn't be a very, very dangerous club in the next couple years with the talent a Bartosak/Dieno trade could potentially bring back and the young talent on the roster right now.

[SectionNDeserter]

At the start of the year I felt that the Rebels would be in a similar position as last year, the 4-5 range.I had that feeling at the end of last season, and thought they could even improve on that when I heard that Los Angeles was returning Bartosak. Once training camp was over, and the roster started to take shape with a dozen first-year players on it, it was clear that the management had different plans. I don't think they are doing too badly given that they have had ten to twelve rookies in the lineup on any given night, and are the youngest team in the WHL at the moment. I think the fans however were hoping that Sutter would make some deals to make the team a little older in the offseason/early in the season.


If this continues towards the deadline, I'm totally in favor of Brent getting what he can for Bartosak and, to a lesser extent, Dieno, and look ahead to next season.Not really a big market for overage import goaltenders. All of the contending teams have solid goaltending and/or three solid overage players and/or two solid imports. The only team that I believe would have any interest in Bartosak would be Prince Albert (as they still seem to think they are contenders this season). I didn't like the look of Dieno's injury last night, and it could be hard to trade him, if he is out for a while.


If they can get a decent goalie for next year and shore up the back end, there's no reason why this couldn't be a very, very dangerous club in the next couple years with the talent a Bartosak/Dieno trade could potentially bring back and the young talent on the roster right now.They do need a starting goaltender for next season, or at least someone that can split games with Burman to take some heat off of him. As it sits, there is a good chance that Bear or Dixon are on the second pairing next season based on projected subtractions from the roster. I'll just let that sink in...

[calcheyup]

I had that feeling at the end of last season, and thought they could even improve on that when I heard that Los Angeles was returning Bartosak. Once training camp was over, and the roster started to take shape with a dozen first-year players on it, it was clear that the management had different plans. I don't think they are doing too badly given that they have had ten to twelve rookies in the lineup on any given night, and are the youngest team in the WHL at the moment. I think the fans however were hoping that Sutter would make some deals to make the team a little older in the offseason/early in the season.
They've been forced to play a lot more rookies lately, but honestly at the beginning of the season I felt like Maxwell, Dieno, Sutter, Volek, Bleackley, Bellerive would be a pretty decent top 6 to reckon with. As well, I didn't expect Fafs and Gaudet to fall apart at the seams and cave in this defensive group.


Not really a big market for overage import goaltenders. All of the contending teams have solid goaltending and/or three solid overage players and/or two solid imports. The only team that I believe would have any interest in Bartosak would be Prince Albert (as they still seem to think they are contenders this season).
Obviously those are mitigating factors, but there's gotta still be interest out there. This is the CHL goalie of the year we're talking about.


They do need a starting goaltender for next season, or at least someone that can split games with Burman to take some heat off of him. As it sits, there is a good chance that Bear or Dixon are on the second pairing next season based on projected subtractions from the roster. I'll just let that sink in...
I really, really hope that doesn't happen, and knowing Brent he is probably not going to roll with that. Gaudet may stick around in an overage role but Fafs will be the odd man out.

Again, this club isn't winning the Dub anytime soon, but I have a hard time believing they won't be significantly better in a couple of years as their youngsters progress. Outside of the obvious (Bleacks and Fleury) you've got Musil, Pawlenchuk, and Mpofu who are all legit WHLers at their age, and guys like Polei and even Chorney who are definitely showing signs that they could be solid contributors in the coming years. Of course, all that hinges on the big IF - is Burman going to be a respectable Dub starter and/or can they get one, and can Sutter address the back end. If neither of those things happen, it won't matter how well that forward group progresses.

As for this year, up front there's no way this isn't a better squad than last year's on paper. Elson was a huge loss, obviously, and yes the points that Hamilton and Ness provided add up. But Hamilton got pushed around by every team that had any decent sized defensemen and Ness wasn't a huge loss. Unfortunately, Sutter has been a bust, Maxwell looks like he hasn't improved at all, Dieno's slumped, Volek played 20 games before he decided to be effective, and although I wasn't expecting 30 goals I had hoped Wyatt Johnson would provide a bit more offense than last year. Defensively the play of Fafard and Gaudet has been a huge let down and really hurt the club.

You have some good points, but there's no way you believe this club should be in 9th place, trailing the likes of Kootenay and Regina.

[SectionNDeserter]

You have some good points, but there's no way you believe this club should be in 9th place, trailing the likes of Kootenay and Regina.Sutter should have made some moves to add some experience to the roster during the offseason, even just depth guys. First few weeks of the season, they were dressing eleven rookies at times. Lines that have three or four rookies on them statistically don't maintain a lot of puck possession, and that is an area they have struggled in.

Kootenay has solid goaltending in Skapski, and boasts a more experienced blueline, projected first overall NHL draft selection Sam Reinhart, and they added 90 point import Tim Bozon early on. They have played three more games than Red Deer, and yet they have only a few more points. I would be quite dissatisfied if I were a Kootenay fan.

Regina made some nice deals earlier in the season, grabbing the tenacious Boston Leier and shutdown man Jesse Zgraggen, that turned their season around, at least until recently. They are also only a few points ahead of Red Deer, and have played two more games. They had a slow start, and they dropped two overage players, and added two big upgrades on them, and fought their way back into playoff contention. I would be quite satisfied if I were a Regina fan.

Red Deer so far this season has traded for Victoria's #7 defenseman (Dixon) and picked up an injured energy forward that has yet to play, and a project power forward in Polei as well as calling up a few 15 year old APs to cover injuries/tournaments. I think this experience is going to help some of these rookies moving forwards, but when the opening night roster had ten rookies on it lets just say that I tempered my expectations a little bit. Overall, I wouldn't say that I am disappointed or ecstatic about their performance so far--they are about where I figured they would be.

[calcheyup]

Agree to disagree then. Red Deer has the best goaltender in the Dub and a collection of talent just as good as their 4th place club from last year, so I'm not going to sit here and say I expect nor accept 9th place - this team should be a middle-of-the-pack club. The fact that so many guys have underperformed and they are still 4 points out of 5th place in the EC validates that. These guys get healthy and start playing with a little consistency and I think it will come out in the wash that they are a lot better than they have shown so far this year.

[SectionNDeserter]

Agree to disagree then. Red Deer has the best goaltender in the Dub and a collection of talent just as good as their 4th place club from last yearWell, I think they have more talent than last season, it is just young and inexperienced. They replaced Underwood and what he brought to the team with Dixon, Dumba's role with Gaudet, Elson's role with Johnson, Gaudet's role with Charif (but not till about 20 games in), and Ness, Hamilton and Johnson's role with assorted 16 and 17 year old rookies. With the exception of Charif assuming Gaudet's role, I honestly don't see anything (short-term at least) that is 'just as good' there. I think the one thing we can both agree on, is that we can agree to disagree. :)

[calcheyup]

Well, I think they have more talent than last season, it is just young and inexperienced. They replaced Underwood and what he brought to the team with Dixon, Dumba's role with Gaudet, Elson's role with Johnson, Gaudet's role with Charif (but not till about 20 games in), and Ness, Hamilton and Johnson's role with assorted 16 and 17 year old rookies. With the exception of Charif assuming Gaudet's role, I honestly don't see anything (short-term at least) that is 'just as good' there. I think the one thing we can both agree on, is that we can agree to disagree. :)
Let's hold on a second here. Fleury has filled Dumba's role, Charif Gaudet's, and Gaudet has moved into Underwood's second pairing role. The top 4 on paper is a solid group, and you would figure that plus Fafard + youngin logging 3rd pair minutes would be a solid, if unspectacular, group. The problem isn't that they're running out scrubs back there (except when they give Bear meaningful minutes), it's that a couple of guys back there need to play a lot better.

And if we're being fair with the forward comparisons, I'm not sure why you wouldn't mention guys from last year's team that got a lot better and filled some of those holes without needing to acquire someone, such as a guy like Bleackley being able to step in and perform at that level on the top line. Wyatt Johnson/Adam Musil have had similar seasons to Ness and Hamilton this year. Bleacks' production on that line is going to exceed what Turner did last year, but...no mention of that. The top 6 lost only Elson, and Bleacks moved into it. So that leaves 5 other guys - Maxwell, Dieno, Volek, Bellerive, and Sutter - all but Bellerive have struggled for large chunks of games, or, in the case of Sutter and Maxwell, the entire year.

Also, it's misleading to dismissively say Johnson and Bleackley's roles have been filled by "16-17 year old rookies" because those two guys were 16-17 year old rookies last year. That's exactly who should be filling their roles.

Absolutely, you have a point about the youngsters. I'm just baffled as to why you seem to think the way most of the veterans on this team have struggled has had a negligible impact on their season so far and the reason they're in 9th place is solely because they're young and inexperienced.

Anyway... onwards and upwards. Chance to climb up two points on Brandon. Last day off before I'm back on shift again so I might even "treat" myself to watching the game on WHL's horrific excuse for streaming television.:bevvy:

[SectionNDeserter]

Let's hold on a second here. Fleury has filled Dumba's role, Charif Gaudet's, and Gaudet has moved into Underwood's second pairing role. The top 4 on paper is a solid group, and you would figure that plus Fafard + youngin logging 3rd pair minutes would be a solid, if unspectacular, group.I think you misunderstood the point I was trying to make. Fleury is filling Fleury's role, just like he did last season. He plays a solid two-way game. Gaudet played more minutes (at least in the first half), and a more 'high-risk' game than he did last season, trying to replace the offense from the point that was lost with Dumba. As you can see, and as I was alluding to, he failed miserably at it. He has looked a little better defensively since they have scaled back his minutes significantly, and his offense has all but vanished. They are trying to replace the ELEMENT that Underwood brought to the lineup with Dixon, not his position in the roster.


So that leaves 5 other guys - Maxwell, Dieno, Volek, Bellerive, and Sutter - all but Bellerive have struggled for large chunks of games, or, in the case of Sutter and Maxwell, the entire year. Dieno is putting up a point a game, and that is what he is here for. Volek started out slow, but really came on in December. Maxwell is Maxwell, he is a strong defensive forward, but little more than that. Moving him back to the wing this season has really limited his effectiveness in that area, as Sutter is now responsible for most of the backchecking--which he only does when the mood strikes him.


Also, it's misleading to dismissively say Johnson and Bleackley's roles have been filled by "16-17 year old rookies" because those two guys were 16-17 year old rookies last year. That's exactly who should be filling their roles.If you actually read it, I said Ness, Hamilton and Johnson. I made no mention of Bleackley anywhere. Johnson was a rookie last season, however, at no point was he on an all-rookie line, sometimes with a rookie or two (or Gaudet) on the blueline at the same time. (ie: he was actually eased into the lineup).


I'm just baffled as to why you seem to think the way most of the veterans on this team have struggled has had a negligible impact on their season so far and the reason they're in 9th place is solely because they're young and inexperienced. While they have improved a great deal in this area as they have gained experience, the single biggest problem with the team this season has been puck possession. For a huge chunk of the first half of the season, the rookies have been getting trapped out there in their own zone under a heavy forecheck for 3-4 minutes at a time, often giving up a goal out of sheer exhaustion. With that many rookies on the team, it was nearly impossible to form checking lines that weren't entirely comprised of rookies. This is why they were grossly outshot in every game for most of the first half of the season, and have improved in that area as the season progressed. Gaudet's horrendous first half certainly hasn't helped, nor has the apathetic play of Sutter, but it is nowhere near the biggest issue with the team.


Anyway... onwards and upwards. Chance to climb up two points on Brandon. Last day off before I'm back on shift again so I might even "treat" myself to watching the game on WHL's horrific excuse for streaming television.:bevvy:Me too, can't wait to see what this new kid brings to the team. Supposed to be a real energy guy.

[calcheyup]

This is going nowhere.

Similar to the Rebels tonight in Brandon. God what a giveaway by Fleury, that was painful for watch. Luckily for us, that was one of the worst shootout attempts I've seen in awhile.

[SectionNDeserter]

God what a giveaway by Fleury, that was painful for watch.He has looked really tired in the second half of the last four or five games. Maybe time to make a deal for some help for him?

[calcheyup]

He has looked really tired in the second half of the last four or five games. Maybe time to make a deal for some help for him?
I would love that, as long as certain youngins remain off-limits. Despite the fact that I still feel this club could be a middle-of-the-pack playoff team, they aren't beating the likes of Calgary/Swifty/Edmonton in the first round so I'm not in favor of giving up a king's ransom in young guys/picks to address that situation. Though, Sutter has a penchant for picking up quality players for dimes on the dollar.

As I alluded to in the other thread, I seriously can't believe how much I miss Brandon Underwood. Nothing against him, but that's really...not good.

[SectionNDeserter]

they aren't beating the likes of Calgary/Swifty/Edmonton in the first round so I'm not in favor of giving up a king's ransom in young guys/picks to address that situation. Though, Sutter has a penchant for picking up quality players for dimes on the dollar.He is 2 for 2 this season. He got fleeced in the Sutter trade, and Dixon hasn't been a good pickup so far, but Polei for an older, troubled Millette and three months of Dumba for three high picks and Kopeck were good. The prospect cupboard appears to be full, and he has a pile of high draft picks to work with now. I would be shocked if he doesn't make a move or two to improve this team, even if it is for next season.


As I alluded to in the other thread, I seriously can't believe how much I miss Brandon Underwood. Nothing against him, but that's really...not good.There was a lot to like. Wasn't the most skilled guy, but he played within his limitations, chewed up tons of minutes, and didn't take any crap from anyone.

[calcheyup]

There was a lot to like. Wasn't the most skilled guy, but he played within his limitations, chewed up tons of minutes, and didn't take any crap from anyone.
No, don't get me wrong, I was a big Underwood fan. But I'm aghast at how big of a hole his departure has left in the defense. This wasn't a 1st round NHL pick we lost, it was a decent, steady 2nd pairing Dub defenseman. The fact that this defensive corps is desperate for a guy like that indicates a pretty sorry state of affairs is all.

And I agree with you, Sutter's got something in the mix. No moves before the deadline would indicate he's ready to concede the season. As for him, his latest moves haven't been fantastic, but just last year he picked up Underwood and Gaudet, guys who made a world of difference on that back end, and a pair of top-6 forwards in Volek and Bellerive. His track record is pretty darn good in the recent past. He also got some pretty decent picks (a 3rd rounder each) for Hamilton and Ness also - for those curious, those guys have combined for 33 points in 82 games this year.

[calcheyup]

Per the advocate today, Sutter is happy with the forward group, Bartosak is going nowhere, and a deal will only be made if it can help the defensive corps. Stockl has been reassigned to Junior A. Also sounds like Feser is with the team for the duration. With the exception of last night he's played pretty well, so good on him.