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View Full Version : Giants 2 Pats 6 - Nov 21st, 2014



dondo
11-22-2014, 02:44 AM
I just realized that Odger's name is Dakota not Dalton :o Boogaard'd -- it's a shame, because it made for a good thing to write. Ah well I'm leaving it as it is on the blog - my bad - where it says Dalton Odgers, insert Dakota :p ;)

Also: Man! was that bad hockey and combined with headache inducing young "fans" randomly screaming - it just got worse as the game progressed. I never leave games early and usually stay for the three stars, but I was sorely tempted to bail early on this one. I should have. Ugh.

Pats Ravage Giants
Vancouver 2 Regina 6


The Giants played one amazing, focused, intense half of a period. Yes, one half of a period – and I am being generous. They were up 2-0 early in the first and looked to be rolling. Tyler Benson scored a very nice goal cutting across the crease. Jackson Houck squeaked one through Daniel Wapple on a PP rush. The crowd was into it, the Giants had 10 shots to the Pats 0 and getting great chances and then the wheels came off. The Pats scored on their very first shot, bouncing a shot from behind the net off of Payton Lee for an awful goal. That woke them up and the Pats continued to gain momentum, eventually scoring late in the period to tie the game. The Giants had as usual a poor 2nd period, but then instead of bouncing back they were even worse in the third period. The home team coughed up two more in the second and then 2 more in the third, one of which came in the last minute of the final frame to really put the boots to the boys and their fans. It was a painful game to watch which was exacerbated by young fans behind screaming for no purpose and mindlessly chanting go Giants go in the most monotone yet high pitch 40 minute steady stream of blather. By the end of the game my head was pounding and the play on the ice was not helping.

Benson opened the scoring 1:57 into the game, off of Matt Bellerive. Houck drove down the centre of the ice and squeezed the puck between Wapple’s arm and body. Carter Popoff and Dmitry Osipov got the helpers. After that it was all Regina. Bad goal bounced off of Lee from behind the net on the Pats first shot of the game. The boys actually visibly sagged after that goal and the momentum just switched. Held off the shot sheet and score-sheet up until that point - the whole game flipped. Regina added one more to tie the game in the last couple of minutes of the opening frame. In the second the Giants were losing the puck battles and not reacting quickly enough. The Pats scored a PP marker mid-period. That goal chased Lee from the net, as it felt as if Troy G. Ward was sending a message more to his team than his goaltender. Cody Porter was solid in relief early on, but eventually the Pats were given too many chances. Porter was finally beat when the puck was turned over and a Pats forward blew past two Giants defenders who didn’t even have time to turn and chase before he was past and in on Porter.

In the third the Pats scored a goal while sitting on the goalie. The officials would argue that the Giants defender bumped the Regina player onto Porter, but the reality was that it was more of a slight nudge and the Pats players used the opportunity to sprawl on the goaltender. It should have been waived off, but then the officiating in this game, such as it was, is a whole other issue. Regina found the back of the net with 29 seconds left in the game and that really was an insult. It wasn’t a bad goal, just very disappointing.

Trade Ticker: The Giants acquired Dalton Thrower’s little brother Josh for Tyler Morrison and a 2nd round pick from Tri-City. I feel like we paid a bit too much for the Thrower name, but the kid is supposed to be a solid stay at home defender who is tough to play against. His numbers are poor, but he’s 18 and if he is even 75% as good as his brother, he will be a steal. I suspect closer to 50% as good, but we’ll see. The Gs also dealt a 5th round pick for Dalton Odgers, so we got a Dalton and a Thrower, but not a Dalton Thrower. Dalton is ex-NHLer Jeff Odgers boy. Odgers is also 18 and supposed to add grit and toughness to the line-up. Not exactly hulking at 5’11” 182, but he looks kind of fireplug-like and solid. I saw one good hard check from him in the game though. His numbers are invisible, so if he doesn’t bring that heavy McEvoy kind of game, then he won’t be worth the 5th. At least they are doing something.

Team Notes: Arvin Atwal will be out of the line-up for the foreseeable future with an injury and with Josh Thrower not able to make tonight’s game in time, the Giants dressed five D-men and loaded on some minutes to blue-liners not ready for that amount of time. Benson was back on the game roster and made an impact early. I found it odd how Ward didn’t play him very much, relying mainly on his top line of Houck, Popoff and Hamilton. Also odd was some number switching. Josh will wear his brother’s #47, so Bobylev was wearing #32. I wonder what happened there and if they asked him or just told him that he needed a different number. I would think that Josh would want a different number to define himself as someone other than his brother, but meh. We also had Brennan Menell wearing #21 and unless he was a huge Borje Salming fan, then dumping a very good defenseman #3 for #21 makes no sense to me. Atwal opting for #20 over the nice defenseman #6 he wore last year also makes no sense to me. Ryley McKinstry (still wearing #26 I believe) is still out of the line-up with an injury.

Fight Night: Dalton Sward v Luc Smith – Sward was given an extra roughing penalty for something that looked pretty mutual to me, but I didn’t see the whole thing. Sward had the jersey half pulled up on Smith and tried to find the target, but Smith kept swinging. The linesmen broke it up when Sward got the real upper-hand.

Zebra Cage: Sean Raphael – bad solo effort, missed a bunch and called some pretty cheesy ones. Sward had his stick broken with a slash and no call. Porter was sat upon as the loose puck was passed across the crease, no call. Osipov was given a kneeing call for what was more of an open ice hip check. Admittedly it did look a bit odd, but still the consistency and lack of awareness was disappointing.

The Giants were out shot 29-27. The boys opened the game with 10 unanswered shots and then got on the schnide. They managed a pathetic 4 shots in the second period and 8 shots in the third when there should have been a push back. Both teams went 1 for 4 with the man advantage.

That was some ugly hockey. It was interesting listening to Ward during the post-game show as he put a few things in perspective. Taking a good deal of the blame himself he also was saying that the he and the boys are really not capable of rebounding if they get into that slump mode and that they all need to find a way to climb out of those holes. He was also saying that for the Giants to break out their current doldrums they will need one of their goalies to steal a game, as Porter did in Seattle. I find it odd that the guys started out the season playing a puck possession game and really pressing in the offensive zone with a forecheck and now they seem happy to dump and sort of chase. I’m not sure if the boys need better work ethic or just need to re-examine how they approach the game, but being mired in last in the West means that they need some sort of shake-up.

I’m really not sure why the players could not reset and bring the same game they brought in the first 9 minutes. Were the Pats just that flat, or were the boys motivated early on and then lacked that same motivation as the game continued. Make no mistake, other than the first part of the first they played absolutely awful hockey. They had no break-out. They did not support the puck and lost all of the battles along the boards. We saw flashes from individuals, but not consistently and no momentum building shift by shift. We are not an elite team by any stretch, but we are better than that. Part of the issue was definitely some blue-liners playing more minutes than they usually would and not being ready to make that jump. Without Atwal and the Morrison trade the Giants D are less experienced and apt to make more positional errors and that was evident tonight. At times it was almost unwatchable and that should never happen. I have got to see teamwork and effort with players willing to pay the price. This was also game three in four nights and could have had an effect on a depleted line-up.

They have another kick at the can tomorrow night as the Cougars come to town. You never know what you are going to get with a Cougars game. The Giants have demolished them 9-1 and 6-1, but the teams have had 2-1 games and 6-1 games the other way. They are usually fairly entertaining though and they are developing a bit of hate on for each other so that bodes well for some intensity. The game will be the fourth in five nights. Josh Thrower will make his Giants debut. Benson will have cleared off some of the rust and maybe have more impact. Hopefully we’ll see more of Odger’s purported nasty side.

The puck drops at 7pm at the Coliseum on Saturday and I have no idea what we are going to get. Hopefully more than 9 minutes of good hockey.

Three Stars

1. Dryden Hunt
2. Tyler Benson (the best choice, but no Giant should have been a star)
3. Austin Wagner

Put them all in the doghouse, including the coaching staff. Let’s hope I don’t see that crappy of a game ever again. The Pats goalie was not that good, he was definitely beatable but the boys needed some effort, any effort. I’m too sad to be angry right now, so very disappointing.

Giantsfan
11-22-2014, 03:36 AM
It was refreshing to see just one ref. He missed a few calls but overall it wasn't any fault of the ref that the Giants lost.

I thought the Giants didn't play their game & they looked slow compared to the Pats.

Not one player stood out tonight. Maybe Benson was the best player but there was so many passengers after the first period.

I thought once again, there were so many defensive breakdowns. Guys standing alone in front of the net, Giants standing around not taking anyone. They left both Lee & Porter to fend for themselves on numerous occasions.

It was an ugly game. It was also the first time the Pats actually won in Vancouver. I guess they were due.

Giantsfan
11-22-2014, 03:43 AM
Was it just me or did anyone else not notice Brumm. Ward mentioned that he was a late addition when Thrower couldn't make it but I didn't see him on the ice one time.

Ward really has it in for Lee. He can't keep pulling goalies every game. It's gonna ruin them. Sometimes they have to learn to battle through the tough times.

Knuckles Muldoon
11-22-2014, 03:45 AM
Fired the goalie coach and the goalies are getting pulled more often than not.....not much stability going on in the crease these days.

Giantsfan
11-22-2014, 08:29 AM
They didn't fire Eli Wilson, they just made him a goalie consultant. He has another full time job & is too busy to be a full time goalie instructor.

I thought the goalies thrived under him.

Priceisright
11-22-2014, 10:13 AM
All I know is we give up a lot of goals. Just from reading the box scores every night. Not a good sign.

Whether it's poor defense or defensive system? Or poor goaltending (which I believe is a huge issue).

Tank nation here we come.

newwestgiant
11-22-2014, 10:16 AM
Frustrating game last night. Ward seems to be continuing the Giants tradition of mishandling our goaltenders and he appears to be really messing with Lee's confidence (friends who sit behind the Giants bench told me that Lee asked Ward why he was pulled and Ward cursed him our pretty agressively in reply). Lee was at fault for the first and third goals but I feel Ward is too quick with the hook. I actually think Porter has been the better goalie but Lee is close to getting the full Whistle treatment from the Ginats this year. When Porter got the shut out in Seattle he got the start the next game which meant Lee went nearly two weeks without a game and look rusty as hell when he finally ogt another start. How many other teams in the league let their number one goalie sit that long? Either go with Lee or go with Porter but don;t tell Lee he is the number one and then consisitently mess with his confidence the way they have been lately (especially when your D are hanging your goalie out to try as much as the Giants have been doing lately)

I'm starting to think the Bonner needs to go. The trades this week are typical of what the Giants have been doing wrong the last couple of years - trading draft picks for third or fourth line 18 years old. Morrison has been poor this year and so maybe Thrower is an upgrade and who knows how good Odgers will be (he was invisible last night) but we seem to make these middling trades every year. Is Bonner only realizing in November that he has a small team that lacks grit? And how many players actually get better year to year under the Giants? Gally and Franson are the only ones recently to my mind. Houck look great two years ago but has fallen off every year since. Geertseten is a disappointment to me, he has all the tools but makes too many boneheaded plays and is probably one of the most over rated guys in the team. Our drafting and player development has been terrible over the last 5-6 years and that to me lands on Bonner. My hometown Q team (Halifax Mooseheads) and their GM highlight what the Giants needs to do. They had three terrible years (worse in the CHL one year) but they accumulated draft picks, played their kids and improved to the point of winning the Memorial Cup. Half the team that won that Cup were there when we were the worst team in the Q. That;s the model. You look at Dub teams like Calgary or, it pains me to say this, Kelowna to see franchises who think the right way. They have a bad year, restock and come back strong again. But the Giants panic every year and make trades for guys with stats like Odgers. We have a lot of young players that show promise. I;d rather we gave ice time to players like Roach, Brumm or Holterus. Stick with the kids and build a team (the champions under contruction marketing tag disappeared pretty quickly). About the only trades I think we should be making are upgrades on our 20 years old. I like Sward, he;s a good defensive forward, but there have got to be better goal scoring 20 yr old out there than Hamilton and especially Belleverie.

I don't mind rebuidling years but I have to have confidence that there is a plan in place. The Giants don't look like they have a plan right now and that is disheartening for this long time fan.

Giantsfan
11-22-2014, 11:01 AM
Sorry but I disagree with almost everything you said.

The trades Scott Bonner made this week are long overdue but also not easy to make. This team has lacked grit for too long a time, (minus last season) & now they are as tough as any team in the WHL.

The goaltending is not the problem on the team. Porter is the starter. He has surpassed Lee as the number one for the time being. Ward has mishandled the goalies, he has no idea what's he's doing & I wouldn't be surprised if Lee asks to be moved because Ward is gonna f*ck up his confidence, if he hasn't already.

As for Geertsen, he's been a rock on the back end. Yes, he does turn the puck over too much for my liking but he brings leadership, toughness & intimidation. Those are not easy to find. He's also getting some pp time & is a big body that every team wants. I have no problems with him whatsoever.

As for moving Morrison & a 2nd rounder for Josh Thrower, what a steal! Morrison was playing terrible & he brings nothing that the team needs. He's not a scorer, not a banger & was brutal in his own zone.
As for the 2nd rounder, the way the Giants have been drafting that is no loss whatsoever & they still have their own 2nd round pick.

If you've seen promise from Brumm, Roach & Holterhus, then you are the only one. Those guys are young but also terrible. May as well add Bobylev's name in there as well. Maybe in a couple years these guys will be players but right now they have brought nothing to the team.

About the only thing I agree with you is Kelowna does it right. Yes, they are the model franchise & have been for years but the Giants did win 5 straight BC Division Titles so not all is doom & gloom in Vancouver. Yes, they haven't won a playoff round in 4 seasons but that's not all on Bonner as I thought Hay was a big part of the problem.

You'd think there would be better 20 yr olds than Bellerive & Hamilton but if they thought there was I'm sure they would make it.

Swando
11-22-2014, 01:54 PM
Houck will be the next one to go as he is probably our most marketable player at this time. We don't have a hope getting past the top teams even if we did squeak into the play offs. I just hope Bonner does not jump to soon with the trade. I would like to see us get a young 16/17 yr old that could play minutes instead of a 1st or 2nd round pick...our drafts are usually brutal.

I am beginning to wonder about Ward??? The reason is that I do not see a real system in place on the defensive end. We can not play any kind of defense like we did under Hay?

I like Hamilton as a 20 year old but after that the pickens are slim. I doubt if Sward would be claimed if we released him and neither would Bellrieve for that matter. Just makes me wonder about our management?

How long are they going to stick with Osipov? The guy is scared and gives away the puck in his own end...takes stupid penalties. He's young but I can't wait much longer! We have Matt Barberis ( a 1st round pick after Benson)playing down in midget and is leading the league in scoring for defensemen.

I left early last night as it was to painful to keep watching. I think it will be a battle of too similar teams Saturday night... That's pretty bad when we are compared to PG!!

dondo
11-22-2014, 02:56 PM
It's interesting to listen to all of these ideas. It's also good to see more posters actually posting. Unfortunately it usually takes a bad slide for some of the posters to ..erm..post.

I think that Ward is having a tough time making the adjustment down a level. One of his problems seems to me to be his frustration with the boys level of play and things that he took for granted in the AHL just are not evident at this level except for a rare few players.

I'm not confident that Ward is cut out to be a teaching coach and most of his strategies are geared toward players who have a certain level of play in thier comfort zone and most of these players do not have that. I appreciate that he is sharing the blame and says that he needs to get better as well. He says that the room is pretty good considering the recent game disappointments, but unless the boys are able to compete more consistetly I don't see that continuing to be the case.

I see what he is doing with the goalie situation, but I sadly I think his reactive pulls are dragging the guys down. Lee was not great, but also not bad. That's been the story for this season with both of our goalies with Porter stepping up more than not. The defense in front of them have not helped matters. Missed assignments and poor positioning are more reasons for goals against than poor netminding.

That said: we do need our goalies to steal a few of those saves/games and stop allowing the soft ones, as they were doing earlier in the season. Not having a full-time goalie coach concerns me.

Bonner might need a shake-up himself. I have been frustrated with him the past few seasons and our player development and acquisition whether by trade or draft has been sub-par. A lot of blame is being laid at Hay's feet for not being able to draft some players, but in the end it's the GM's job to sell the franchise to the players and he hasn't done a very good job of that imo.

Lucic
11-22-2014, 03:00 PM
I'm starting to think the Bonner needs to go. The trades this week are typical of what the Giants have been doing wrong the last couple of years - trading draft picks for third or fourth line 18 years old. Morrison has been poor this year and so maybe Thrower is an upgrade and who knows how good Odgers will be (he was invisible last night) but we seem to make these middling trades every year.

Believe me I have been extremely frustrated with Bonner the last couple of years. He says one thing but doesn't deliver on that promise. But these last two trades are an example of him owning his word. And neither deal is anything to be angry over, IMO.

Giving up a 5th round pick for a bottom six forward that adds grit and should be on the team for at least a year and a half is a no lose situation, IMO. A 5th round pick isn't very valuable and the Giants still have an abundance of draft picks. I don't believe they have a 5th round pick for 2015 but they have a couple of 4th's.

Thrower is definitely an upgrade on Morrison and a year younger to boot. Morrison wouldn't have been back next season. The only asset the Giants lose here is a 2nd round pick and of course there is definite value there. But they also have their own 2nd round pick (which will likely be higher anyway). The scenario worked out perfectly for the Giants as they wanted Thrower last season and couldn't work out a deal to acquire him. This season they desperately lacked toughness and Thrower asked to be moved closer to home so everything really fell into place. Lastly Thrower isn't a 3rd or 4th line 18 year old. He is a defenseman and he will certainly play top 3-4 minutes on this team.


Is Bonner only realizing in November that he has a small team that lacks grit?

He's known for a long time and he's made that known vocally. But for whatever reason it took him a long time to pull the trigger on a deal. While it annoys me it took this long at the same time at least he finally did something about it. So in that sense I'm not going to complain. I'm just happy it was addressed.


Our drafting and player development has been terrible over the last 5-6 years and that to me lands on Bonner.

No doubt about that. And he has received a lot of criticism from fans about that. Especially on this board. The fact the entire scouting staff received contract extensions is mind blowing. But in a way you contradicted yourself. You are complaining about the Giants trading away draft picks yet complaining that Bonner and the scouting staff make awful selections. Which I absolutely agree with on the latter. So from that standpoint wouldn't you rather acquire a player that adds an element to this team and can help and contribute right now rather than take a gamble on a draft pick panning out given this teams history with drafting over the past several seasons? Of course I'm not suggesting the team should just give away all picks for players that is absurd. But I don't think trading away a 2nd round pick and a 5th round pick when the Giants still have plenty of draft picks they've accumulated over the past few years will hurt the team any long term.

Priceisright
11-22-2014, 03:59 PM
Houck will be the next one to go as he is probably our most marketable player at this time. We don't have a hope getting past the top teams even if we did squeak into the play offs. I just hope Bonner does not jump to soon with the trade. I would like to see us get a young 16/17 yr old that could play minutes instead of a 1st or 2nd round pick...our drafts are usually brutal.

I am beginning to wonder about Ward??? The reason is that I do not see a real system in place on the defensive end. We can not play any kind of defense like we did under Hay?

I like Hamilton as a 20 year old but after that the pickens are slim. I doubt if Sward would be claimed if we released him and neither would Bellrieve for that matter. Just makes me wonder about our management?

How long are they going to stick with Osipov? The guy is scared and gives away the puck in his own end...takes stupid penalties. He's young but I can't wait much longer! We have Matt Barberis ( a 1st round pick after Benson)playing down in midget and is leading the league in scoring for defensemen.

I left early last night as it was to painful to keep watching. I think it will be a battle of too similar teams Saturday night... That's pretty bad when we are compared to PG!!

But Osipov was a 1st pick in the import draft . :rolleyes: he must be good lol

Lucic
11-22-2014, 04:17 PM
But Osipov was a 1st pick in the import draft . :rolleyes: he must be good lol

Well because of that fact I think the Giants feel they need to hang onto him. In hopes that he will pan out eventually. Also to justify taking him #1 overall. Not to make any excuses for him but I do feel Hay screwed up his development last season. He obviously didn't like Osipov and sat him out way too often. Even when he did dress he rode the pine most of the game. Yes he took some dumb penalties and made mistakes out there but that's what rookies do. Especially European rookies trying to adapt to the culture, learn the North American game and make an impression.

Needless to say it's starting to look more and more like he'll be a bust when all is said and done.

Giantsfan
11-22-2014, 05:23 PM
Houck will be the next one to go as he is probably our most marketable player at this time. We don't have a hope getting past the top teams even if we did squeak into the play offs. I just hope Bonner does not jump to soon with the trade. I would like to see us get a young 16/17 yr old that could play minutes instead of a 1st or 2nd round pick...our drafts are usually brutal.

I don't think Houck is going anywhere. He has 40 goal potential & they are going to need him next season. I like that he is playing more pissed off. I think it shows he's involved in the game, something I didn't see a lot of earlier this season.


I like Hamilton as a 20 year old but after that the pickens are slim. I doubt if Sward would be claimed if we released him and neither would Bellrieve for that matter. Just makes me wonder about our management?

He's been invisible as a 20 yr on the road with a lone assist. Not near good enough for a 20yr old. I like Sward. Good skater, good on the pk. Obviously the team think highly of him to vote him captain. I doubt he's going anywhere. Bellerive has been up & down. Not great point totals but he is playing physical & has picked up his game over the last 10 games or so. Only way he goes is if Kulak returns.


How long are they going to stick with Osipov? The guy is scared and gives away the puck in his own end...takes stupid penalties. He's young but I can't wait much longer! We have Matt Barberis ( a 1st round pick after Benson)playing down in midget and is leading the league in scoring for defensemen.

I don't mind Osipov. Maybe I'm alone in that but he's still young & even Ward was disappointed that Hay didn't play him last season because Ward figured he'd be better this season. He has a great shot & I think he should be on the pp more often. As for Barberis, I don't think he is in their plans. Menell, Dosanjh & now Thrower are with the Gmen & not Barberis.

Giantsfan
11-22-2014, 05:25 PM
Dondo, I agree, it's great to see a lot of Giants fans posting on this site. Usually it takes a few losses to bring out the passion in some members. Love the debating.

johnnyradiant
11-24-2014, 05:06 PM
Osipov seems to be fitting right in with this lot. He could be better. I still think he was a poor pick but that aside I'm not ready to throw him out with the bath water given what he endured last year and he doesn't have the most stellar lot around him to elevate his game.

As for Barberis. If he is having a good season in midget great. Leave him there to work on that and build up his game. He certainly doesn't need to be dumped into this lot this year, unless he can single handedly be credited for being the difference maker in the win column throughout the season. Too much potential for him suffering like our goalies.

Giantsfan
11-24-2014, 06:59 PM
I don't expect Barberis to be Giants property past the trade deadline.

Swando
11-25-2014, 12:00 AM
I don't 't expect Barberis to be Giants property past the trade deadline.

I would like to know where this statement comes from? If is is traded we will be getting a pretty good return. Bonner has stated we will be seeing more of him this year.

As for Houck not being traded I think Dondo:p should start a betting site on his own "View from the Corner" blog. LOL it might be like a fantasy pool where we see who's thoughts end up being right.

I know Bonner has to shoulder a lot of the blame but I would not want to be in his shoes right now. He is probably fielding tons of calls on our better players every day and being offered little in return. If our scouts are worth anything they should be watching Kelowna, Everett, Portland, Brandon, Medicine Hat and Swift Currents drafts from last year and see how they are performing at the level above bantam and make their 2014 1st round part of a trade that includes getting Houck. I hate to see him go in a year we need scoring but we are a big BUST this year and may as well admit it now. Bring in some toughness at a low cost and let our smaller players with skill develop as we struggle thru another year.

johnnyradiant
11-25-2014, 12:47 PM
We are already in the lottery for first overall pick if we could slip another 5 points we could really increase the odds by getting another couple ping pong balls in that hi-tech lotto machine of theirs. It's not as if we need to have a functioning team by 2016 or fill the stands between now and then.

We should be in a position to move forward without all this padding of other team's win column for yet another season. Clearly broken still.