Giants 1 Silver Tips 7 -Jan.30th, 2015

[Giantsfan]

Not sure *** is wrong with this team. I mentioned that the coach has checked out, & it looks as though several of the players have as well. Believe me, he has.

Bellerive was a healthy scratch last night. No loss as he had done nothing as has Dalton Sward, although I don't question his work ethic. Jones has been their best forward since they acquired him.

This is year 3 of the rebuild. They are mirroring the Troy G Ward team all over again. They are regressing not improving.

A complete lack of leadership & accountability on this squad. I said about a week ago, that it's time for some of the older vets to sit, & Baer & Bellerive did but keep it going until the players get the message. Where's Foster been? Ronning, forget it, Houck? Sward, captain? C'mon.

Seriously, what happened to Benson? Porter? Maybe these guys have just been played to death? The other young guys Roach, Bobylev, Brumm, Ramsay have brought little or nothing. Menell has been solid but at this time isn't a point producer.

Shut out 3x in their last 8 games, including the last home game. After almost a week of practice they come out & suck.

Time for some changes with the staff. Not sure what's going to happen if they miss the playoffs.

[Giantsfan]

Correction. Steve Ewen just posted that Bellerive is out with an illness for an indefinite time.

[Lucic]

I knew they would lose this game and I hate watching games in Everett so I wasn't paying full attention to this one. I had it on and was listening and watching from time to time. When I did watch I didn't like what I saw. It seemed Everett controlled most of the play and the Giants were scrambling around with no structure whatsoever defensively. I also saw some really stupid penalties. Penalties that didn't necessarily have to be called but ones you knew would be called given the score in the game. I can't say any one particular player looked good to me. From what I saw of course. Maybe someone did stand out during parts I wasn't watching.

I really don't know what to say or think other than it's a Troy Ward flashback right now. Which to me proves it isn't (or wasn't) the coaching all along. It's the players. A much more difficult problem to have. I don't envy Scott Bonner right now. A lot of changes need to be made during the off season.

[Giantsfan]

If they miss the playoffs I don't see how they can bring Scott Bonner back as GM. I'm a big fan, but this is year 3 of the rebuild & it's not going well.

I don't think they will tinker around looking for a coach. I think they will target a guy, & open the vault. Paying peanuts for a coach isn't the way to go.

I don't think anyone looked good last night. I dozed off a couple times because I watched the last 2 periods about 2am.

Yes, they continue to take stupid penalties whether they are or not doesn't matter.

[Lucic]

The penalties don't matter if they aren't playing with any defensive structure. They are doomed to lose no matter what. It's just bizarre how at one point this team looked like they could be a difficult opponent in the first round to a team that shouldn't even make the playoffs but still may due to a lot of mediocrity in the BC Division.

Not long ago I would have confidently said Kamloops was the weakest team in the division and now they look like the more deserving team of making the playoffs. The Cougars have fallen back to reality (I think they've lost 9 or 10 straight) and the Giants are pretty much in the same boat. If this is how the team is going to play I really don't want them to make the playoffs because they will be embarrassed. They'd be better off tanking it and hoping for the highest pick possible. Even though I have no confidence the Giants scouts will select the best player regardless of their positioning. I like Bonner as well but sadly I think management needs to be cleaned out from top to bottom.

[newwestgiant]

I went to that game last night and Ron Toigo owes me gas money. That was an embarrassment. With the exception of a 5 minute spell early in the second we were woeful. Jones and Mennell were our only decent players last night. Porter was hung out to dry and the team should be ashamed of the way they played in front of him. With the excpetion of the second goal (and even that was a power play) he had no chance on any of the goals. Everett players left wide open in front of the net, walking around our D-men like they were pylons. Embarassing. We give the puck away in our own zone way, way too much. Thrower made more passes to Everett players than to his own last night (and his bone head penalty in the seocnd broke up what little momentum we had and led to a Tips goal that effectively killed the game).

I think if you are ownership you have to look at Bonner as the problem. We haven;t won a play-off series since 2010. Our player development has been awful. Since our Memorial Cup run you can count on one hand the players who have improved year over year: Gally, Chucky, maybe Wes van and Franson. There have been too many players who regress: Musil and Houck are just two examples of players who showed tons of potential as 16 years old that they never realized on. Some of that is obviously on the players but we are a development league and the Giants development has been poor. Benson looks lost lately and that is a worrying sign. Our trading has not been much better. Vincour,Morrison, Bennett, Thrower and now Jones have all made the team better. But they were all 20 year olds (or one season players). We have been poor at identifying younger talent. We draft too many small players. Baer, Stueckel, Ramsey and Ronning are all too small to play in this league. Watching Ronning trying to forecheck against Betker last night was laughable. Playing two of these small forwards on the same line (as we usually do) means you have an ineffective unit on the ice way too often. And I can;t even begin to understand how we handle our goalies. You name Lee as your starter then you play Porter more than him. Porter gets hot, wins goalie of the month so Lee gets four starts in a row??? I think Porter is the better of the two goalies, he appears to play with more confidence (Lee has had three years of the Vancouver gong show to knock all the confidence out of him). But whoever you designate as your number one, play him and don't put your back up in for more than one game in a row until/unless your number one plays himself out of that role. I'm sure our goalies by now feel like one bad game and they are on the bench and given how exposed we regularly leave our goalies that is no way to build confidence in our keepers.

Another boring rant - I love this team by they try my patience;) Bonner out and let the real rebuild begin

[Giantsfan]

Thrower was a great pickup, regardless of how poor he plays at times. He's only 18 so he'll be around longer than most of the guys they pickup.

He does give up the puck a lot but those things can be fixed. You can't teach toughness, you either have it or you don't so he was a great pickup, same with Odgers. Two guys who are very valuable in my book.

Yeah so done with smurf hockey & it seems Bonner is as well. The acquisitions of Jones, Odgers & Thrower show he knows how small they are & small teams go nowhere.

I'd like to see them dump Ronning more than anyone. He's a bust & injury prone. Haven't seen a thing from him.

[Knuckles Muldoon]

Too many small guys...and you can count on one more coming on board next season with James Malm. Take Baer, Ronning, Ramsey and Stukel.....and at least two of those guys need to go. Ronning has shown nothing since returning to the lineup, and I don't know that he's worth further investment of time beyond this season.
Beyond Menell, Benson and sometimes Porter...there's not much to be excited about concerning this team right now.
And the goalie situation? I have no idea what's going on there at all.

[Giantsfan]

I think the goalie situation is a game by game evaluation. The defensive play in front of their net & defensive coverage is non existent in so many games no matter who is in net. Porter is definitely the better of the two.

I think Stukel has upside & maybe Baer. I'm not sold him but he's only 17 & you can't just give up on players like that. Ramsay looks ok, good wheels & tries hard.

[Swando]

it's sad when you have to force yourself to go to a game as is the case tonight against Kamloops.

I agree with all the comments on the topic.

[Giantsfan]

It's been a while since a home game. Looking forward to seeing how the boys respond after another beat down. Wonder if Rehill is gonna step up & go with Geertsen or is he gonna puss out again? Huge two points on the line tonight & let's see how bad the boys want this one. Looking for a solid bounce back game from Cody Porter. I'm hoping for some animosity & physical play after a couple of embarrassing losses. Show the fans you care as much as they do.

[dondo]

it's sad when you have to force yourself to go to a game as is the case tonight against Kamloops.

I agree with all the comments on the topic.

Ouch.. I thought it might be just me .. I haven't seen a live game in almost a month and I am finding myself just wanting to stay home.

I listened to the second last night and the boys seemed to have a bit of jump early in the middle frame, but when they allowed that goal and then the one on the very next shift I knew it was going to just get uglier.

I have to say I look at euro players and other players on other franchise's team and wonder regularly why we didn't draft him. Esp euros, we have had high picks for years now and seriously have done ZERO with them. I know its the agents and the league and the blah, blah, blah - but seriously other than players like Meszaros who was basically handed to us, we cannot draft an effective euro. Repik was able to contribute despite Hay and inconsistency early and Bliznak was a Canucks pick, but we cannot compete with other teams when our imports third-line also-rans. Where is our Nikita Scherbak? Why wasn't Osipov an Ovechkin or Yakupov?

Anyway - they play marginally better at home and if we can't beat the Blazers then we should not be in any sort of playoff position. WE not only need a win tonight, we need a convincing win.

Thanks for starting this GFan

[newwestgiant]

I'm not as impressed by Thrower as you are Giantsfan but he is no better or worse than Morrison and a year younger so I guess he is a marginal upgrade. I like Odgers effort most nights but 4 points in 27 games isn't a huge contribution. I haven;t seen all his games but he has been invisible most games I have seen. He gave a good effort last night but for all the talk of his toughness he didn't show much in his fight last night and he he took a really dumb penalty in the second last night.

I don't like to advocate giving up on 16 or 17 yr olds, thats why I have more patience than most with Roach. He has size and has shown flashes of skill. He reminds me a little of Martinook in his first year with us. Baer, Stuekel, Ramsey and Ronning are the same player (ranked by skill level IMO) so I'd keep Baer and maybe Stuekel and cut the the other smurfs. I think we need to evaluate our pieces in the context of planning for next year. Porter, Mennel and Benson are a good start for a rebuilding team. The problem is there's not a lot there after those three:o

[Swando]

When I read comments about small players...I know what you are thinking but there IS ROOM for them as is the case with Cole Sanford 5'8 165 lbs and Trevor Cox 5'8 164 lbs. They just happen to be 1-2 in league scoring!!
What is about our smallish forwards is they are not as talented and that goes directly to our DRAFTING/SCOUTING. I think we need a complete over haul in that regards!

[Giantsfan]

I'm the first one to say that Thrower gives up the puck a lot but compared to Morrison, I'd take Thrower hands down everytime. He's as tough as anyone in the WHL & a year younger than Morrison who was nothing but a spare part. He also can clear the net & play physical along the boards.

As for Odgers, how can you criticize a guy who fights guys bigger than him all the time? He goes to the wall for a teammate & any points you get from him are a bonus. He's not here as a goal scorer, he's here to add size, & toughness to the team & I think he does a bang up job.

[Giantsfan]

Looking at 2 of our youngest players, Porter & Menell were both undrafted players.

I agree the scouting dpt has to be re-evaluated. I can't believe they gave Ripplinger a contract extension.

[johnnyradiant]

When I read comments about small players...I know what you are thinking but there IS ROOM for them as is the case with Cole Sanford 5'8 165 lbs and Trevor Cox 5'8 164 lbs. They just happen to be 1-2 in league scoring!!
What is about our smallish forwards is they are not as talented and that goes directly to our DRAFTING/SCOUTING. I think we need a complete over haul in that regards!

Who do those two play with? Another 2 or 3 small line mates and a defensive backing that couldn't stop a beachball every other game?

There is definitely room for small players in the league but not 1/2 a dozen on a generally undersized team with not enough backend ability to keep a team in it?

There is room for skilled players in the league no matter the size but too many small guys that don't have a standout skill set does not a winning team make. We have four guys that could basically trade out jerseys and we'd see pretty much the same thing and that is a competent player that isn't quite at the level to not have his size be a factor in his play whenever he steps on the ice, and not just some times.

Whole thing seems to be broke. It used to be said that teams cycle fairly frequently. I used to think that we broke through some of that because we were some what competitive for longer than was suggested. Now I think we seem to be cycling/stagnating longer than necessary at the bottom despite having some decent picks to work with. Is it our scouting? Is it our trading inability? Is there some sort of handcuffing going on to prevent enough control over the building process? Is there an underlying business reason to hang out at the 'turn off the fan' level?

[Giantsfan]

What do you mean turn off the fan level? I wasn't sure what you are getting at.

[walleye18]

I'm not as impressed by Thrower as you are Giantsfan but he is no better or worse than Morrison and a year younger so I guess he is a marginal upgrade. I like Odgers effort most nights but 4 points in 27 games isn't a huge contribution. I haven;t seen all his games but he has been invisible most games I have seen. He gave a good effort last night but for all the talk of his toughness he didn't show much in his fight last night and he he took a really dumb penalty in the second last night.

I don't like to advocate giving up on 16 or 17 yr olds, thats why I have more patience than most with Roach. He has size and has shown flashes of skill. He reminds me a little of Martinook in his first year with us. Baer, Stuekel, Ramsey and Ronning are the same player (ranked by skill level IMO) so I'd keep Baer and maybe Stuekel and cut the the other smurfs. I think we need to evaluate our pieces in the context of planning for next year. Porter, Mennel and Benson are a good start for a rebuilding team. The problem is there's not a lot there after those three:o

Odgers used to be a big goal scorer in Midget AAA is Sask.

[Lucic]

I'm not as impressed by Thrower as you are Giantsfan but he is no better or worse than Morrison and a year younger so I guess he is a marginal upgrade. I like Odgers effort most nights but 4 points in 27 games isn't a huge contribution. I haven;t seen all his games but he has been invisible most games I have seen. He gave a good effort last night but for all the talk of his toughness he didn't show much in his fight last night and he he took a really dumb penalty in the second last night.

Thrower isn't a very smart hockey player and he's worse defensively than I remember him being with Calgary. I think that is mainly due to the minutes he's playing and the skill of the opposition. In Calgary he played limited minutes against bottom line players. Now he is playing more more against better players and the results are a lot worse. Sometimes it's hard to gauge that transition properly and I made a mistake there with my personal projection. He is no better than a #6 defenseman. That said, he is still better than Morrison for the mere fact Morrison wouldn't be back next season (he's eligible, but no way he sticks as a 20) and he brings something to the table (toughness) whereas Morrison didn't, IMO. The only real potential loss in that trade is the 2nd round pick. And given how bad the Giants are at drafting I'm not convinced they would have used that pick to their advantage anyway.

As for Odgers you shouldn't expect much or any scoring. That isn't why he was acquired. He is a 4th line player that will bring energy and stick up for teammates. He's done a fine job of that. He isn't the greatest fighter, he's small in stature and sometimes struggles against bigger guys but he always shows up. And that's what matters. I'll take that on my team over a 5th round pick any day of the week. As for that penalty against Everett I get what you are saying. The Tips broadcasters were surely harping on that. I kind of disagree. That was a cheap shot and I don't blame Odgers for going at him. What annoyed me about that is nobody else tried sticking up for the guy always sticking up for his teammates in Odgers. Kind of speaks volumes about this team if you think about it. If it isn't Odgers or Geertsen nobody else even attempts to help out a teammate. Even if Odgers doesn't take that penalty do the Giants likely score and win that game? Highly unlikely, IMO. That penalty didn't impact the outcome of the game in my mind.

[johnnyradiant]

What do you mean turn off the fan level? I wasn't sure what you are getting at.

Do they have some sort business model in play that precludes the game/sport model of competing, that is at the same time turning off the current fans because the on ice product has been in a basic tapering off in compete since the Mem Cup. Yes they have competed but generally a bit less as an overall team each year, and a lot of fans seem to think it is how the team has been structured, and managed. Even three years ago when they couldn't win they looked more like a team at least trying but incompetent to muster up against the rest of the league. Now they look like most nights they don't care to try. They certainly aren't able to take to the rest of the league but should be able to consistently play 60 minutes with some w's and l's based on their own solid play without pissing off the fans for an entire season. To me as frustrating as 2 seasons ago was this is worse because they do not seem to be displaying any growth. Are they building a team from the top down destined for on ice failure for some sort of long term business gain? How many seasons has Bonner been on the radio saying his preference is for a team with more grit and size and for how many years have we been stunned with draft choices that contradict his mid-season and sometimes on trade deadline run-up's. I certainly get that it takes more than one GM to make a trade but it only takes one GM to make a draft choice. Maybe the current team is frustrated because they had a dangling carrot of a /16 Mem Cup snatched away from them.

[Giantsfan]

I'm willing to give Scott another year to see how things go. At least Hay is gone. To me, he was as much a part of the problem as he was the solution when he first arrived.

I find this year more tolerable than 2 yrs ago when they missed the playoffs because at least they have a tough team & won't get pushed around like in many previous seasons.

I do see some growth with a few players but sadly there are still so many players that just seem content to ride out the season.

[dondo]

I'm not. I like Bonner in a lot of ways, but between the nepotism and big drafting and development fails, his time here is really done. Management and lack of direction and lack of progession have been an issue for over 5 years IMO.

[MeszarosFan]

I don't see this season as any kind of improvement over the team they iced two years ago. At least two years ago they worked hard for the full 60 minutes in every game. This season has been a total Jekyll and Hyde show. They have games where they look like they have finally turned the corner and could be a really good team. Then the next game they don't even show up to play. Size has nothing to do with attitude. And frankly, their attitude really sucks this year. If they make management changes from Bonner on down I am willing to give them another season to see if there's improvement. If they don't then it's highly unlikely I will renew.

[Giantsfan]

I would be shocked if Scott Bonner doesn't return. Toigo wouldn't fire him, it would have to be Scott leaving because Toigo is very loyal to him.

Who else is a better GM? How many GM's out there have won 5 straight division titles, how many have won a Mem Cup & how many have won a league championship?

[dondo]

There are a lot of savvy hockey guys out there very capable of stepping into the GM and President and scouting positions and if one more person tells me that Toigo won't do 'X' because he is loyal I am going to scream. Bonner is not Toigo's buddy he is his employee and has not done a good job in many years now.

He is an employee and even though he is open to talking to fans and is a nice guy, the reality is that he seems incapable of attracting high-level talent and in the end that is all that matters. As I said - I like Bonner, but team management is broken and when team management is broken then changes must be made.

Toigo is a businessman first and this season the team is averaging 1000 less bums in seats over last season and if nothing changes there will be 1000 more departing. Toigo could not afford to lose the 1000 who departed this season and will not be able afford any more losses. As loyal as he is, he is a businessman and with problems with Gordie, the loss of Pat Quinn and loss of potential playoff revenue. I think the bottom line might speak more boldly in the end.

The fans need to have something to believe in and the same old won't fly anymore. My prediction is that the team did not hire a long term coach because they are expecting a new GM will hire his own guy in the off-season. I do not have Bonner's ear, or an inside track to the team like some, but the writing on the wall is writ pretty large in this case.

[Giantsfan]

There are a lot of savvy hockey guys out there very capable of stepping into the GM and President and scouting positions and if one more person tells me that Toigo won't do 'X' because he is loyal I am going to scream. Bonner is not Toigo's buddy he is his employee and has not done a good job in many years now.

The have a relationship that goes back over 20 yrs. Scott's not just an employee to Ron they are close friends. If Scott doesn't return that would be his decision not Ron's. That's my opinion.

Who are these savvy hockey guys who are capable of stepping into the GM & President & scouting positions? You say there are a lot...name three, heck, name one. What's his qualifications?

I've made it very clear where my loyalty lies. Scott likes big, aggressive teams & Hay didn't. Hay's gone & they pick up Thrower, Odgers & now Geertsen isn't on a short leash that Hay had him on. Hay told Mason not to fight.

I talk to a lot of people who are close with important people on the team. I talk with scouts, I talk to other coach's, former players, I've spoken with Scott many times, & I've spoken to Ron himself. I don't blow smoke out my a$$ I talk to people within the organization on a regular basis & sometimes I'm dead on, sometimes I'm not. I've heard of trades that happened before they were announced. I hear a lot of things & sometimes you have to decipher what's the fact or fiction.

I'm also tired of the losing, the passionless hockey but be careful of what you wish for because what you have might not be as bad as what you could get.

[Priceisright]

Hope Toigo sells the team. Of course it would stay in vancouver. Not a fan of him.

At least hope we see a new GM.

[Giantsfan]

No chance Ron will sell the team. Don't be surprised if they end up moving to a new rink near the Surrey Central skytrain station within 5 yrs. There has been speculation of this a few times. I believe that it will happen in the not so distant future.

[scrunt]

I'm not sure where the real problem lies, but I do know that there is a problem. This team has gone nowhere in the last 3+ years.

This franchise is blessed with several competitive advantages that ownership and management have failed to exploit.

There is absolutely no fundamental reason why any player/family/agent (Canadian or Euro) should say no to reporting to the Giants. We have a great city, good practice facility, easy access for NHL scouts, above league-average attendance (but falling rapidly), an history of success (but becoming ancient history fast). It can only be due to the way the team is being run -- which is of course 100% within the control of ownership and management.

While I will support ownership and management if they miss out on a few ego-inflated prospects because they fail to play the corruption game, I cannot accept that we are not able to entice any decent Euros with our picks. It's not like the Giants have a budget based on an average attendance of 2,500 that prevent us from investing in decent European scouts, top Canadian scouts, and a top development program.

Personally, I think the ownership pissed away the big profits of the winning years, and the team is now a toilet-bowl swirl of cutting costs to match dropping revenues, which is harming the on-ice success, which is killing revenues... We were once dealing from a position of strength, but no longer.

I get that making the playoffs and getting two more home dates makes a big difference to the bottom line, but it pisses me off that this short sighted view is preventing the team from being a seller before the trade deadline and actually committing to a rebuilding plan. Two years ago Morrison's great play was enough to delude management that this team was a playoff contender. Last year it was Dalton Thrower. This year it was a temporary willing streak when Claude Noel came on board.

As I have said to several people this season, I can put up with a few bad games when it's costing me less than $20 per game. But without much hope for a better future, I'm no longer quite so sure anymore. I will probably renew next year, but its getting harder and harder to get motivated to come to the games. If it wasn't for the curiosity I have to watch Tyler Benson next season, and my reluctance to give up the specific two seats we have, I'd be hard pressed to come up with a reason to renew.

This team continues to screw up the goaltending situation. Our Euro drafting is a joke. We cannot develop players. We seem unable to draft decent prospects that have a size, skill and motivation (that combination is hard to come by, but other teams seem to find them).

I just don't see any progress...

[Giantsfan]

Good post, I agree with most of what you said & many have echoed the same concerns.

What I don't understand it the rebuilding stage. When exactly did it start? When they finished dead last 2 seasons ago you could say it began then, because the next training camp they said nobody was safe & anyone's place on the team wasn't a guarantee.

The lack of a puck moving defenseman is definitely tough to come by but essential for a winning team. Thrower & Kulak were a force when paired together on the pp & once Thrower went down, so did the entire team.

I don't see anyone with that skill set in their system. Which bodes another question, do they have a five year plan? If so, is this year three of the plan?

Besides a few bright young players (Menell, Porter, Benson) I don't really see these other young players becoming top notch players. They continue to use the age of the team as an excuse but if you don't see some significant progress like you could in Cunningham, Gallagher, Lucic, Bouma etc. then what can you do? You're stuck with a bunch of underachieving 17 & 18 yr olds.

I think that's where they were a couple of seasons ago. It takes more than a Tyler Benson to rebuild this mess. I think the goaltending is as strong as it's been in 7 years, but it's possible that their confidence isn't that high & with Lee out Porter must start to steal some wins.

I agree about making the playoffs for 2 home dates. That's a pathetic goal to strive for. When I spoke with Scott in camp he said this team needs to win at least two rounds so the players get some experience & a taste of what it takes to win in the playoffs. At this point, I would think that the plan has gone way off track & making the playoffs will take some serious effort that this team hasn't shown since before the Xmas break.