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Chipper
02-04-2005, 11:29 AM
In the WHL there is a wide range of teams and populations to draw from so my question is how much is enough to break even or turn a profit? This league is turning into more of a buisness than just a game with good young hockey players. I have heard that it could cost a million dollars or more to operate a team; so how do the small market teams survive? In Cranbrook it is well known that the ICE management initiated their clause to leave if the team could'nt put a average of 2800 fans per game (LAST YEAR I THINK THEY AVERAGED 2799) if they do average 2800 per game at roughly $13 per game with season and walk-up averaged would be $1,310,400.00 In swift, guessing their atendance at 1900, $889,200.00 now. If you go to the other end of it and look at Calgary at est 8000 per game = $3,744,000.00. If I were a team owner I would probably want to own a team like Calgary. So my fear is that in the future the small market team owners may get greedy and go for the money and not the loyal small market fan. I hope I'm wrong but it is very possible to see the small teams sold to the highest bidder or moved. How much profit should be enough to keep the small market teams where they are? If it costs a million after all the bills and wages are paid and you bring $1,300,00.00 your net profit is 300.00.00 30% (Pretty good) WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS ON THIS SUBJECT for the love of the game, or for the love of $$$$$$

Scout
02-04-2005, 12:11 PM
Small market teams such as ourselves,Moose Jaw and Prince Albert would never be able to survive on ticket sales alone. We always have to come up with invative ways of raising money. Last year in Swift Current a local building supply co. built a 1500 square ft house. They had the City donate a prime lot. The building company then offered the house at cost price to three groups in town ,one of which was the Bronco's. They also gave the three groups the house on credit with no interest until the lottery was over and a winner drawn. Tickets were sold at $100.00 each and the three groups got close to $100,000.00 between them.

This year we have teamed up with the Moose Jaw Warriors for a province wide Goals for Education Lottery. 4,000 tickets are sold between the two teams at $100.00 each and you have a 1 in 80 chance to win over $150,000.00 in prizes. As i am involved in this, i can tell you so far this has been very successful so far.

We have been very successful at keeping this team in good financial shape. Last year we got stung and lost money when the coaching staff and some office staff were released of thier duties and contracts were paid out. This year we will also loose money as we prob. will not make the play-offs for the first time in over 30 years. Our expenses compared to bigger centers are i would guess 30% less as in rink rental, concession, rental, etc. Where we are on an equal playing field is eduaction expenses. They are going higher and higher every year. How do we curb it? We come up with lotteries and such to raise the $200-250 thousand. The City of Swift Current announced a major reno for the rink which will add 500 - 800 seats. But the good part is they will also add 8-10 luxury boxes that there is a waiting list for. At $8,000 to $ 10,000 a year thats $100,000.00. They are talking about selling the name for the rink as in Credit Union Center. Another $25 - $ 50 thousand. I could keep going. Now we are looking at ways to get more people into the rink by having family packs, 10 packs, etc. We are contacting our alumni ie: Sakic,Trottier,Tiger Williams,etc. to purchase tickets. These guys have their roots here and don't by one ticket,but 10. Or they will take one ticket but give a $1,000.00 for it.

Chipper
02-04-2005, 12:51 PM
Thats true I only counted revenue through the gate there is alot of other ways that teams make revenue. Good points SCOUT maybe there is a hope for us. Swift is a comunity owned team right? so they don't get as much presure about making money, just trying to break even (guesing) although I;m sure they would love a big profit.l I wish the ICE were a comunity owned team also, some very good advantages.

speedkills
02-04-2005, 01:13 PM
I know it's gotta be harder for 'small market' teams but you also need to consider the 'cost' of doing business in a city like Calgary. I'm sure their rent on the 'rink' is quite high compared to a place like MJ.

I'm not saying that Calgary doesn't have it good...just gotta consider everything, not just gate revenue.

One advantage the WHL has is that the 'player costs' are fixed so to speak, but a larger grossing organization can and probably does spend a bit more on scouting, management & coaching which in turn usually helps the teams success, which in turn gets more bodies in the seats...vicious cycle eh? lol

It'd be really interesting to see the 'books' on some of these teams, I'm sure here in Spokane that they're doing 'pretty well' from the looks of it.

rinkrat
02-04-2005, 04:29 PM
Should the players be paid? ( besides the pittance they get now)
I was sitting in the Pacific Coluseum in Vancouver with 11,000 others.Wondering to myself,how much money the owners are making off these kids.Obviously I'm talking about Vancouver,Calgary,Everett,Kelowna etc.Not Swift Current and company!These owners by my account are raking in the coin! Not that theres anything wrong with that,just a point for discussion.Also if it weren't for these rich owners we wouldn't have the WHL.
This debate also could include college football in the states....

The_Vulk
02-04-2005, 06:21 PM
As for in Calgary, the NHL Flames own the Hitmen.

Having a tenant when the 'big boys' are not playing, and not having to change anything is a PLUS.

As for rent... it might just be a token dollar, as the Flames own them, and also manage the SaddleDome. At least, that is the preception we get.


And even so, the WHL (and the CHL as well) needs those 'smaller market teams'. They make up so much of the dymanics of the sport and our culture. Nothing so much unites us all than our love of hockey.

Fans deserve great hockey, and at a price the entire family can go to from coast to coast. Having a team does so much for the community.

Big markets, small markets. Fans are the same everywhere. And everyone has the chance to win.

Beaner
02-04-2005, 07:11 PM
Should the players be paid? ( besides the pittance they get now)
I was sitting in the Pacific Coluseum in Vancouver with 11,000 others.Wondering to myself,how much money the owners are making off these kids.Obviously I'm talking about Vancouver,Calgary,Everett,Kelowna etc.Not Swift Current and company!These owners by my account are raking in the coin! Not that theres anything wrong with that,just a point for discussion.Also if it weren't for these rich owners we wouldn't have the WHL.
This debate also could include college football in the states....

Does the WHL have a revenue sharing program to make up for the smaller market teams?

Chipper
02-04-2005, 07:16 PM
I guess what scares me the most is that all owners see the $ of the bigger market teams and maybe will down the road look to profits rather than loyalty of the small market team fans and ending a lot of tradition of hockey I think more and more owners only think of this as a buisness and a good buisness man always wants the bigest profits.

rinkrat
02-04-2005, 08:05 PM
do you think the owners in Calgary or Kelowna would contribute to Swift Current?

Jew Panda
02-04-2005, 08:57 PM
Anyone know the tag on starting up a WHL franchise? :]

Starting at Center, from the Flin Flon Flyers, Gilbert Brule!

HAF
02-04-2005, 09:03 PM
Anyone know the tag on starting up a WHL franchise? :]

Starting at Center, from the Flin Flon Flyers, Gilbert Brule!



I'd like to see that too. If the Perspective owner had the dough would the Dub have any say so as to where he wanted to put down roots?

Orv
02-05-2005, 01:22 AM
Anyone know the tag on starting up a WHL franchise? :]

Starting at Center, from the Flin Flon Flyers, Gilbert Brule!

I just saw an interview with the Oilers Pres. Patrick LaForge and he was talking about wanting a Dub team back in Edmonton. I'm pretty sure that he said last year they offered either $3 million or $5 million(can't remember which) and were rejected. He also said they weren't prepared to offer that much again. I think that the WHL would take that but they don't want to add any franchises at this time.

Personally I hope they don't put a franchise in Edmonton because that would most likely mean that a great WHL franchise would be up-rooted and moved to Edmonton basically because they have the money for it.

In the same interview he also put to rest those pesky "Blades for Roadrunners swap" rumours. He said that Saskatoon was very much a WHL city and they have a long and rich history with the Blades.

Personally one of my favorite things about the WHL is all the smaller market teams. I love that smaller places like Swift Current and Cranbrook have teams and I could really care less if Edmonton, Calgary or Vancouver had teams but hey money talks.

Beaner
02-05-2005, 01:43 AM
Nothing wrong with big cities having teams, as long as they dont steal an exisitng franchise to get it.

Mileflames
02-05-2005, 02:23 AM
I'm not saying that Calgary doesn't have it good...just gotta consider everything, not just gate revenue.

As for rent... it might just be a token dollar, as the Flames own them, and also manage the SaddleDome. At least, that is the preception we get.

-Calgary NO RENT

CALGARY HAS IT BETTER THEN 99% of any other hockey team in any league playing right now in North America

-the big plasma Ring around the level split advertisements
-Score Board plasma TV's and light TV's advertisements
-Many of the building advertisements, like the seat cut off signs
-Parking, Concessions
-Use of NHL workout faculties for free
-Box office sales
-Selling all there merchandise at the Fanatic for free because they are owned by the flames.
-Marketing is a joint operation with the Flames, saves money
-Boards advertising (this year)
-HITMEN DINNER PACKAGE $35
-Big company money in Calgary for Advertisement money
-Oh forgot about the Presidents Club seats and box revenue
- 9197.23 AVG for this year attendance, ticket pricing CA $16.75 - CA $35.00

sorry about the grammar and spelling I need some sleep

The Calgary team is owned and operated as a part of the Flames. Mr. King is the President of both teams. But right now the millions of dollars the hitmen are making is going to the salary of the Flames scouting and management staff.

Mileflames
02-05-2005, 02:37 AM
I'd like to see that too. If the Perspective owner had the dough would the Dub have any say so as to where he wanted to put down roots?

The more pertinent question is whether new franchises are actually worth $3 million.

http://www.herald.ns.ca/cgi-bin/home/displaypackstory?2004/11/17+156.raw+Mooseheads1104+2

rinkrat
02-05-2005, 09:35 AM
I love that smaller places like Swift Current and Cranbrook have teams and I could really care less if Edmonton, Calgary or Vancouver had teams but hey money talks.
Thats really nice,Orv.You have endeared yourself to the fans of Vancouver and Calgary.

Tinner
02-05-2005, 10:00 AM
Here's my take. The WHL has a long and rich history in the west and in order for that to continue with respect to the "small" vs "big" market teams is basically one thing.

As a member of the league, based on the proven ability to manage and run a team in a sound financial manner, no team will operate at a loss. The league set up a stability fund where all the teams contribute. This fund would be used to support any team that applies for funds.

We must remember that the small market teams are the backbone of the league. If the so called smaller markets didn't have teams, it wouldn't be much of a league. It was afterall, the smaller markets that started and have been part of the league for a long time. These markets are needed to offset some travel problems that exist. There aren't enough big markets vs the number of players with the ability to play. That is part of the reason the league wants to stay at 20 teams.

By the way, teams that are owned by 1 owner or small partnerships vs community owned teams haven't been lining up at the "poor house door" from what I've seen.

Red celtic
02-05-2005, 01:14 PM
The demand for Whl teams in larger Centres like Edmonton, Grand Prairie, Winnipeg and Victoria are not going away. These Centres have lots of money and look at the Dub as a real alternative to professional hockey. In the long run small market clubs are going to be the losers (which is sad). But money talks and the people running those teams will get offers they can't pass up. So within 10-15 years you will see the Dub primarily in larger Centres. : :(

CHtoo
02-05-2005, 02:37 PM
I assume you meant Grande Prairie Alberta and not Grand Prairie Texas?
I wouldn't consider a town of 40,000 a big center myself but then I've lived in Vancouver.

Just a few points.

I think it will still be a tough go to pull teams out of comunity owned towns, but it could happen if expenses get too high.

Scout
02-05-2005, 02:43 PM
If centers like Victoria, Edmonton or Winnipeg want an excisting franchise it will come at the expense of one of the larger centers. These teams are privatley owned and the owners look at the bottom line. Teams like Swift Current, Moose Jaw and Prince Albert are all owned by the community and are kept here because they boost the economy.

Many of the players that played in Swift Current still return every year. Guys like Joe Sakic, Bryon Trottier, Tiger Williams, Terry Ruskowski, Ron Delorme, Jeff Sanderson, etc. still have strong ties to the Bronco's and are very interested on how the team is doing both in the standings and financially. They realize there is not one owner with bottomless pockets. The Bronco's have a rainy day fund of just under a million bucks. If this depletes to where it may put the team in jeopordy i know Joe, Bryon and co. would step up to the plate. These guys now have roots to a small town where they return every summer and know most in the town. I know when they return they are not treated any different and can go out with their family and know alot of people by name. Some players who have honed their skills in Swift Current have also invested in some companies in town.

It would be one heck of a fight to lure the Bronco's from town. I look at Edmonton, Winnipeg, and Victoria that all had previous teams and never made it. The people didn't embrace the team as there own as in smaller communities. Plus in a small community you see these guys on a daily basis not like it larger centers where nobody knows who they are. I think the smaller communites are at less risk then larger centers that are privatley owned.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Red celtic
02-05-2005, 04:20 PM
The difference between Edmonton having a team now and 6-7 years ago is that the Oilers would be the owners and would treat their WHL team like the flames do a nice cash cow. Also the CHL is becoming big business I know that Sutter would not get the Rebels for the same price he paid 5 years a go. Look at the Mem cup clubs like Kelowna and Red Deer are going to have a hard time hosting the event in the future because of the size of thier arenas. These are clubs which have arenas that hold 6000 people times change. Also Grand Prairie AB is about 50-60 thousand people and serves an area of about 250 thousand not that I care I live in Red Deer. :D

Beaner
02-05-2005, 05:29 PM
It would be one heck of a fight to lure the Bronco's from town. I look at Edmonton, Winnipeg, and Victoria that all had previous teams and never made it. The people didn't embrace the team as there own as in smaller communities. Plus in a small community you see these guys on a daily basis not like it larger centers where nobody knows who they are. I think the smaller communites are at less risk then larger centers that are privatley owned.

I couldn't agree more.

In the last 15 yrs 3 teams have moved,

Victoria to PG.
Edmonton to Kootney
Tacoma to Kelowna.

Thats 3 teams leaving for smaller markets. That should tell everyone something.

Chipper
02-05-2005, 06:08 PM
I couldn't agree more.

In the last 15 yrs 3 teams have moved,

Victoria to PG.
Edmonton to Kootney
Tacoma to Kelowna.

Thats 3 teams leaving for smaller markets. That should tell everyone something.ok I get your sarcasim three teams moved from large markets to smaller markets are you saying we shoulden't worry in a small market teams or just a bit of humour

rinkrat
02-05-2005, 06:45 PM
I couldn't agree more.

In the last 15 yrs 3 teams have moved,

Victoria to PG.
Edmonton to Kootney
Tacoma to Kelowna.

Thats 3 teams leaving for smaller markets. That should tell everyone something.
Kelowna Wings ( boy they sucked) moved to Spokane.Larger Market...

Jovorock
02-05-2005, 07:22 PM
Kelowna Wings ( boy they sucked) moved to Spokane.Larger Market...
The only reason the Kelowna Wings moved to Spokane was because all the old folks voted out a tax increase to build a new arena!

Most of the elderly folk in Kelowna have come here from Vancouver, Alberta and the Prairies, and Ontario. The old folks in this town don't want this city to grow.

When Tacoma wanted to move to Kelowna, the city council didn't even try to do it through civic money to build a new arena, it had to go though private money. If not for private money Kelowna would still, and never have a WHL team!

Kelowna is a city that is one of the fastest growing cities in the country, but half the city is walking around half dead.

Beaner
02-05-2005, 07:43 PM
ok I get your sarcasim three teams moved from large markets to smaller markets are you saying we shoulden't worry in a small market teams or just a bit of humour

I wouldn't worry.

It wasnt sarcasm, just a point about what has happened with teams moving in the last 15 yrs.

RunTheGoalie
02-05-2005, 08:16 PM
The difference between Edmonton having a team now and 6-7 years ago is that the Oilers would be the owners and would treat their WHL team like the flames do a nice cash cow. Also the CHL is becoming big business I know that Sutter would not get the Rebels for the same price he paid 5 years a go. Look at the Mem cup clubs like Kelowna and Red Deer are going to have a hard time hosting the event in the future because of the size of thier arenas. These are clubs which have arenas that hold 6000 people times change. Also Grand Prairie AB is about 50-60 thousand people and serves an area of about 250 thousand not that I care I live in Red Deer. :D

Err, no. Grande Prairie just crossed 40,000, and if they are lucky, their market area is 50,000. The only two nearby towns of decent size - Peace River (8000) and Dawson Creek (15,000) are over an hour away.

Grande Prairie also has the problem of a tiny arena. Crystal Centre only holds 2500.

I think the fear of the WHL moving to larger centres is overblown. Simply put, there just arent any large centres left after Edmonton and Winnipeg. Victoria has the ECHL, so is out, while Edmonton is out until they move the Roadrunners again.

ROADKING
02-07-2005, 04:21 PM
Err, no. Grande Prairie just crossed 40,000, and if they are lucky, their market area is 50,000. The only two nearby towns of decent size - Peace River (8000) and Dawson Creek (15,000) are over an hour away.

Grande Prairie also has the problem of a tiny arena. Crystal Centre only holds 2500.

I think the fear of the WHL moving to larger centres is overblown. Simply put, there just arent any large centres left after Edmonton and Winnipeg. Victoria has the ECHL, so is out, while Edmonton is out until they move the Roadrunners again.


GP has just had a renovation on there building bringing there seating to over 3500 now with more to come ..

wango tango
02-07-2005, 04:59 PM
Winnipeg is a dead option.

Victoria is too far away.

Edmonton is still quietly negotiating to acquire an existing WHL franchise.

RunTheGoalie
02-07-2005, 06:53 PM
Victoria is too far away from what? Or did you get Winnipeg and Victora reversed there?

Roadking - I am aware of the arena renovations, though I have no idea how they could expand that arena past 3500 without significant reconstruction.

Grande Prairie also has the notable problem of being nowhere near any other WHL city. Until an Edmonton team arrives to bridge the gap, Grande Prarie is probably going to have to resign itself to the AJHL.

The_Vulk
02-07-2005, 07:04 PM
Victoria always had the problem that you had to ferry it over. The connection was very limited.

bcdfan
02-08-2005, 08:34 PM
It has to. The community owned teams will do their own thing as long as they can. Once they start losing big time money they might not be so interested in keeping the team. Sad but very true. I agree that they are the backbone to the league as we know it right now. It is just a fact of life that things are going to change. New rinks with large capacities popping up and deeper pockets to keep a team afloat. It unfortuately has become a big business.