Edmonton

[Mileflames]

Edmonton Oilers Presented an Expansion plan for a team to the board of Governors today. looking at 2007

[LifelongChiefsFan]

I know this is the general opinion already, but if anything the league needs to contract a team or two not expand some more. Giving Chilliwack a team was about the worst thing the WHL could do. 20 teams was balanced...and really wasn't that bad (although I liked 16 better.) 22 teams though, that's way too many for 3 provinces and a state. Edmonton already had their chance and let the Ice go why should they get another team? It wouldn't shock me at all to see Winnipeg and some other city (Boise maybe??) try to get teams. They might as well, WHL doesn't seem to have any concern whatsoever at the watered down play they are showcasing to their fans with their disire to expand more and more. Whatever makes the most money is most important I guess.

[Broncs in RD]

Why in the heck should Edmonton get another franchise when they had 1. They had one it failed, what will be so different this time around?

[SectionNDeserter]

Why in the heck should Edmonton get another franchise when they had 1. They had one it failed, what will be so different this time around?No kidding, that is only one that they have had recently too, they have had a handful of franchises in the past as well.

[bandwagonboy]

Why in the heck should Edmonton get another franchise when they had 1. They had one it failed, what will be so different this time around?

This time they'll have the support of the Oilers, rather than the opposition of them.

Not that I agree with more expansion. Where will all these teams find the players?

[Jovorock]

Why in the heck should Edmonton get another franchise when they had 1. They had one it failed, what will be so different this time around?
Not that I am in favor of expansion, but Kelowna had a team before the Rockets. They failed to get a arena and the team moved to Spokane. If you bought Kootenay owner a beer and asked him he regrets making the move from Edmonton to Cranbrook, he would say HELL YEAH!

[scamperdog]

Like it or don't like it, in todays kam daily news the big vote is on March 16/06

[GF71]

Tough call on this one. They had a team once. BUT they played in a less than desirable building. Vancouver and Calgary are successes in big buildings. Maybe it might be different this time? Are there enough people in Edmonton to support a WHL team? The AHL team did ok, and in fact made a bit of money, but they were brought in to fill a need, rather than to be a permenent franchise. The people I have talked to that are involved withteh WHL are all to a man in favour of an expansion team. Are there enough quality kids around? It will add to the unbalance of the divisions, but hten it also kinds sets it up for further expansion...ie Victoria, Nanaimo, etc. Six to one, half a dozen to another, i guess.

[Triton]

that's way too many for 3 provinces and a state.

You mean 4 provinces and a state.

[HAF]

Thats 4 provinces and TWO states. Portland is not in Washington,Its in Oregon.

[Triton]

Thats 4 provinces and TWO states. Portland is not in Washington,Its in Oregon.

LOL..Brandon and Portland sometimes get forgotten.

[Tinner]

Ok, here's a list of teams that have folded and the league has voted to have them come back in.

Calgary, 2 times or 3 franchises - Centennials, Wranglers and Hitmen
Lethbridge, Broncos and Hurricanes
Swift Current, Broncos
Vancouver or area, New West Bruins
Kelowna, Wings and Rockets

[Jimmypop316]

What happens when Seattle moves though?

I sincerely think its a matter of time before they move somewhere and hopefully its not too far away. After Edmonton, who else will be lookin got get a team, I'm sure the dub will be expanding to 24 teams.

[3rebels]

Petty, Petty aren't we !! :D
I would like to see hockey back in Winnipeg, Great Falls and Billings. The whole idea is to get more people watching and enjoying hockey and one way is to bring the product to the local towns and cities. If big is the answer, then Swift, Kootenay, Tri-Cities, Medicine Hat, Lethbridge and Red Deer are in danger. :(
I look at expansion as a necessary evil. It didn't kill the NHL, NBA, MLB or NFL. Lots of kids playing hockey out there and lots that need a place to play. Yes, the talent will be watered down. We'll need a Gretzky, Orr, Lemieux or Hull to bring back the glory days of "Old Time Hockey". I like what is happening right now with the CHL. Faster, better hockey. Still hitting and still fighting with goals and shut-outs and GREAT games. Who could ask for any thing more. I guess the next franchisee that makes us stop and realize that , YES, more coverage over our area is better for the long term success of hockey in North America amd the world in general. ANd speaking of the World, I wonder how 1 Euro per team is going to work out. Pretty soon the Euros are going to say, 1 Canadian or American player per team and then our talent pool will really shrink. :D

[wango tango]

this should still be a 20 team league. the governors/owners screwed up with their handling of the porter/sather/burke group. if they had not awarded an expansion team to them the governors/owners were going to be in a very bad legal position. now due to the governors/owners stupidity they'll weaken their teams, because of expansion, to fix what could have been an avoidable mess.

edmonton will get a team.

[HAF]

[QUOTE=3rebels]Petty, Petty aren't we !! :D
. If big is the answer, then Swift, Kootenay, Tri-Cities, Medicine Hat, Lethbridge and Red Deer are in danger. :(

Tri Cities has a population of around 150,000. I wouldnt exactly consider that in the same "small market" class as the other towns mentioned.

[Fight Guy]

So this isnt completely off topic...I dont think Edmonton deserves a team. They had a team for what, 2 years and they had to move? But...expansion is now imminent(is that the word I'm looking for) with 21 teams. 22 is even off balance. May aswell look forward to seeing 24 teams adventually in the not too too long future.

[The_Vulk]

I must be in the minority, in thinking this is good for the game, the league, and the fans.

I don't want or like sport-team owners playing russian-roulette in getting new arenas/better leases or relocating.

Our fans deserve to keep their teams.

I like expansion better, and I don't mind see an even larger league in the future. (Including more US-based teams; Montana, Idaho, North Dakota)


And the whole talk about wanting to downsize. :spineyes:

Should the NHL go back to just the 'original six'?

HELL NO!

[Jimmypop316]

And what?...P.A. is??? :spineyes: :laugh:



So this isnt completely off topic...I dont think Edmonton deserves a team. They had a team for what, 2 years and they had to move? But...expansion is now imminent(is that the word I'm looking for) with 21 teams. 22 is even off balance. May aswell look forward to seeing 24 teams adventually in the not too too long future.

I figure its just a matter of time until we are at 24. Evens out the divisions and everything. I'm wondering if they will realign again once this happens.

[RunTheGoalie]

I know this is the general opinion already, but if anything the league needs to contract a team or two not expand some more. Giving Chilliwack a team was about the worst thing the WHL could do. 20 teams was balanced...and really wasn't that bad (although I liked 16 better.) 22 teams though, that's way too many for 3 provinces and a state. Edmonton already had their chance and let the Ice go why should they get another team? It wouldn't shock me at all to see Winnipeg and some other city (Boise maybe??) try to get teams. They might as well, WHL doesn't seem to have any concern whatsoever at the watered down play they are showcasing to their fans with their disire to expand more and more. Whatever makes the most money is most important I guess.

Based on your argument, the Chiefs should be immediately folded becuase Spokane had already lost a WHL franchise in the Flyers only three years before landing the Chiefs.

[LifelongChiefsFan]

Thats 4 provinces and TWO states. Portland is not in Washington,Its in Oregon.


Lol, I DO realize that Brandon is in MB and Portland is in OR. The argument just sounds that much better if you discout these "outliers." (I didn't mean any disrespect to either city or franchise.)

[LifelongChiefsFan]

Based on your argument, the Chiefs should be immediately folded becuase Spokane had already lost a WHL franchise in the Flyers only three years before landing the Chiefs.


Yeah ok, you can sit there all day and try to tell me how Spokane had a legitimate franchise in the Flyers, and I will laugh at you all day long. Flyers didn't even have a shot, I mean come on 26 games? Do you even know the situation that surrounded them folding? It's kind of hard to be a successful team when the league you play in prevents you from existing!! Flyers never had a chance to be a successful team. I honestly think you could have come up with something better than that. Look how successful the Chiefs have been. How many teams have gone through Edmonton?

You can just assume because I'm younger I don't know anything about hockey history in Spokane that's fine. I find it quite amusing.

[Chipper]

Not that I am in favor of expansion, but Kelowna had a team before the Rockets. They failed to get a arena and the team moved to Spokane. If you bought Kootenay owner a beer and asked him he regrets making the move from Edmonton to Cranbrook, he would say HELL YEAH!
What makes you so sure? The Ice have been verry successful over the last 8 years in Cranbrook not near the bottom of the league attendance, No team has a better average over that span Very faithfull knowledgeable fans also. To say that because we are a small market team they feel they make a mistake moving to Cranbrook is IMO an Ignorant thing to say unless you have inside information and know this to be true? I think not. Ed Chenowyth is a very smart buisness man and knows that the WHL has survived and flourished because of small market teams. Were we lack in population we gain in being close to everything and the players are close knit group because of it. I here it all the time Players love playing here because everyone lives close to all teamates and not so many 'clicks'. I think that this is a very stable franchise and no mater the lack of respect to the Ice and City of Cranbrook they are here to stay for many many years.

[Triton]

Lol, I DO realize that Brandon is in MB and Portland is in OR. The argument just sounds that much better if you discout these "outliers." (I didn't mean any disrespect to either city or franchise.)

Brandon's a much older franchise than your chiefs my friend.Outlier them instead IMO.Brandon's been around since '66.

[LifelongChiefsFan]

Brandon's a much older franchise than your chiefs my friend.Outlier them instead IMO.Brandon's been around since '66.

Age of the franchise didn't have anything to do with it. All I was going by was geographical locations and boundaries. Like I said, if I offended, it wasn't my intention, and I apologize.

[Wingnut]

I posted this a year or two ago on the grey board. I think (and the WHL seems to agree) that you must look at each city as the situation is currently.

Here is the list of cities where the WHL is currently and how many times it has failed. I think I have every failure.

Vancouver (including New Westminster)

Vancouver Nats - moved to Kamloops (Chiefs)
New Westminster Bruins version 1 - moved to Kamloops (Junior Oilers/Blazers)
New Westminster Bruins version 2 - moved to Tri-Cities

Kamloops

Kamloops Chiefs - moved to Seattle

Kelowna

Kelowna Wings - moved to Spokane

Spokane

Spokane Flyers - folded

Calgary

Calgary Centennials - moved to Billings
Calgary Wranglers - moved to Lethbridge

Moose Jaw

Moose Jaw Canucks - folded/moved to SJHL

Lethbridge

Lethbridge Broncos - moved back to Swift Current

Swift Current

Swift Current Broncos version 1 - moved to Lethbridge

Now for previous cities that are known or rumored to want back in:

Edmonton

Edmonton Oil Kings version 1 - moved to Portland
Edmonton Oil Kings version 2 - moved to Great Falls
Edmonton Ice - moved to Cranbrook (Kootenay)

Winnipeg

Winnipeg Jets/Monarchs/Clubs - moved to Calgary
Winnipeg Warriors - moved to Moose Jaw

Victoria

Victoria Cougars - moved to Prince George

Now, at the risk of upsetting Seattle fans - the Thunderbirds franchise is possibly on its way to becoming a problem for the league. I know the fan base is very loyal but there has been a cash call each year to the partners in the current ownership group. At some point, the partners are going to either run out of money or run out of the desire to further fund the team. I know of one small owner who had to come up with $8,000 after the first season. Now I don't know about you, but I certainly don't have $8,000 lying in the couch cushions, especially after forking over a large, possibly six-figure, amount to purchase my share in the team just one year previously.

The attendance is not at the level needed to sustain the franchise and they are looking at getting a new building somewhere; they would like to see something along the lines of the Everett facility. It is not going to happen in Seattle, not with the NBA Sonics whining about Key Arena. Bellevue (the suburb to the east of Seattle) doesn't seem to have anything happening and the team can't look north, because Everett is there. So south is the only way left without a complete relocation elsewhere.

There are rumors about Tacoma doing something with the Tacoma Dome. I have heard two rumors - and these are just that - UNSUBSTANTIATED RUMORS. One is that the City of Tacoma is looking at blowing up the Tacoma Dome and replacing it with a clone of the Everett facility. The second is that the city will build a clone of the Everett facility within the existing Tacoma Dome structure. Whether either one of these is actually being thought about by the City of Tacoma is another thing, as is the actual possibility that it will come to be.

My understanding is that the Thunderbirds are working on one-year leases with Key Arena but I could be wrong. I was told that they need to average 4,500 to break even before the current ownership group took over in the summer of 2002. If the current group financed the purchase, it is possible that the break-even point is higher than this. However, the average price of a seat at games has increased with the closing of the upper bowl, so break-even is probably still around 4,500 average per game. Average attendance under the current ownership group:

2002-03 - 4,600
2003-04 - 4,450 (Everett's first year in the league)
2004-05 - 4,395
This season - 3,936 with seven games still left against Everett and Portland.

If 4,500 is still the magic figure, then you can see that it's not going well.

[Jimmypop316]

Seattle really is in a bad situation, not only do they have to compete with the Pro sports there, but they also have pricey ticket prices. Most of the good seats are $20, and the lowest are $12.

Its a joke if a team has to move because theres also the faithful there who deserve better. Hopefully something happens there so that the team doesn't have to move.

Regardless, I think there is a lot of changes coming to the WHL team/league wise. Going to be an interesting couple of years.

[FELIX17]

What kind of money did each of the 20 franchises receive from Chilliwack's expansion? With Edmonton next, I would imagine that number would increase. Any speculations on the amount?

[Wingnut]

I believe Chilliwack paid $3 million, so each team got $150,000. Everett's fee was $2 million ($105,263 per team) and the fee is rumored to be $4 million for Edmonton and/or anyone else ($190,476 per team). It is possible that Everett and/or Chilliwack do not get a share of the expansion monies as part of their franchise agreement. Sometimes, clauses are put into expansion franchise agreements prohibiting new teams from sharing in any future expansion fees for a certain period of time.

[RunTheGoalie]

Yeah ok, you can sit there all day and try to tell me how Spokane had a legitimate franchise in the Flyers, and I will laugh at you all day long. Flyers didn't even have a shot, I mean come on 26 games? Do you even know the situation that surrounded them folding? It's kind of hard to be a successful team when the league you play in prevents you from existing!! Flyers never had a chance to be a successful team. I honestly think you could have come up with something better than that. Look how successful the Chiefs have been. How many teams have gone through Edmonton?

You can just assume because I'm younger I don't know anything about hockey history in Spokane that's fine. I find it quite amusing.

No, but you clearly do not have an understanding of the junior hockey history in Edmonton, or why the Ice relocated. Yet you came out with an attack against Edmonton that was full of assumptions with no basis in reality.

Your very reaction only serves to prove my point: that what happens with one franchise in a city does not automatically qualify as a sign of the viability of that city as a WHL town.

There are reasons why the Flyers failed. There are better reasons why the Chiefs have succeeded.

Similaraly, there are reasons why the Ice failed. There are better reasons why a new team in Edmonton could succeed.

[OHLArenaGuide]

No, but you clearly do not have an understanding of the junior hockey history in Edmonton, or why the Ice relocated. Yet you came out with an attack against Edmonton that was full of assumptions with no basis in reality.

Your very reaction only serves to prove my point: that what happens with one franchise in a city does not automatically qualify as a sign of the viability of that city as a WHL town.

There are reasons why the Flyers failed. There are better reasons why the Chiefs have succeeded.

Similaraly, there are reasons why the Ice failed. There are better reasons why a new team in Edmonton could succeed.

The Oilers are a 900-lb gorilla in Edmonton. The gorilla wanted the Ice to fail, and they did. The gorilla wants a new team to succeed, and I am willing to bet that they will. Edmonton is a great hockey town and with the support of the Oilers I'd bet any money that they will become a success story like the Hitmen.

Would the team play at Northlands Coliseum or whatever they're calling it nowadays?

[GF71]

Yes, they are going to play at the Rexall Centre

[The_Vulk]

The Oilers are a 900-lb gorilla in Edmonton. The gorilla wanted the Ice to fail, and they did. The gorilla wants a new team to succeed, and I am willing to bet that they will. Edmonton is a great hockey town and with the support of the Oilers I'd bet any money that they will become a success story like the Hitmen.

Would the team play at Northlands Coliseum or whatever they're calling it nowadays?
They see how owning a Major Junior Hockey Team, using the same facilities, is very much a cash cow for the parent corporation. They already have the staffing for the arena, etc, and utilizing the building with a minimal of work (not having to cover the ice for other activities) helps the bottom line.

Besides, it is just another to the long list of rivalries between the two Alberta Cities.

[GF71]

Now that I have had some time to chew on it, I think it will be a good thing. I know I will be making a trip up there to catch a game or two.

[RunTheGoalie]

The Oilers are a 900-lb gorilla in Edmonton. The gorilla wanted the Ice to fail, and they did. The gorilla wants a new team to succeed, and I am willing to bet that they will. Edmonton is a great hockey town and with the support of the Oilers I'd bet any money that they will become a success story like the Hitmen.

Would the team play at Northlands Coliseum or whatever they're calling it nowadays?

Yup. When the Hitmen arrived in 95-96, and the Ice a year later, both the Flames and Oilers were extremely nervous about the impact the junior teams would have. However, each organization reacted differently.

The Flames had signed a deal with the city two years before that gave them control of the Saddledome. So even though they were nervous, the Flames let the Hitmen play in the Dome - after a brief time in the Corral - partly because that would generate revenue for them. When they realized the potential, the Flames bought the team outright.

The Oilers wanted nothing to do with the team, and forbade them from playing in the Coliseum. Instead, they had to play in Northlands Agricom, which is an embarrassing blight on a city that already is not very pretty to begin with. The Agricom is barely fit to host the ag-related trade show slop fests it does, and I dont think I have ever seen a worse building for hockey in my life.

The Ice's demise in Edmonton was guaranteed from day one.