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Beaner
08-03-2006, 11:12 AM
From Spokesman-Review:


Chiefs work to secure player, assistant coach

Jeff Bunch
Staff writer
August 3, 2006

It seems nothing comes easy for the Spokane Chiefs.

If all works out well for them, they will have a new assistant coach and possibly a top newcomer in the fold when they open their Western Hockey League training camp at the end of this month.

But there are a lot of "ifs" to those scenarios.

First and foremost, the Chiefs are awaiting a ruling from the Canadian Hockey League on a dispute between the WHL and the Ontario Hockey League over which league has the right to sign 2006 National Hockey League first-round draft pick Trevor Lewis.
Lewis, 6-foot-1 and 192 pounds, is a highly regarded center from Murray, Utah. The 19-year-old was the 17th overall pick, to the Los Angeles Kings, in the June NHL entry draft.

Scouts have praised Lewis' skating speed and scoring ability. He was a star in the U.S. Hockey League last season and had committed to play at the University of Michigan before going pro and forfeiting his U.S. college eligibility. Before all that occurred, he was placed on the Chiefs' "protected list."

Given that, Spokane believes it has the exclusive right to sign him to a player agreement since Utah is within the geographic territory of the WHL.

The Owen Sound of the OHL disregarded that, however, signing Lewis on July 21 and holding a press conference to announce such. The dispute will need to be settled by the CHL, which is the umbrella organization for the three Canadian major-junior leagues: the WHL, OHL and Quebec Major Junior Hockey League (QMJHL).

There is no clear process on how the matter will be settled, as the situation is unprecedented, according to WHL commissioner Ron Robison.

"We've never had this situation before because we've always been able to work these things out between leagues," Robison said by telephone on Wednesday. "Each league has defined territory. There is a different release process in each case. In this particular case, there was no request for release. The OHL has a different interpretation."

Spokane general manager Tim Speltz believes the underlying facts are clear.

"He's a player on our protected list, in the WHL's territory," Speltz said. "There's a process that has to be followed, since the CHL is involved, and at this point it is a WHL matter first and then a Spokane Chiefs matter second."

Jimmypop316
08-03-2006, 03:36 PM
This really seems like a pretty easy answer. He's on the Chiefs PPL so therefore he should play for them.

If they allow Owen Sound to get him.. that pretty much kills the whole PPL's use.

Dwight Schrute
08-03-2006, 04:21 PM
This really seems like a pretty easy answer. He's on the Chiefs PPL so therefore he should play for them.

If they allow Owen Sound to get him.. that pretty much kills the whole PPL's use.
he is in our (the whl) territory. he was not given a release. his chl rights are owned by the whl (and the chiefs since they have him listed) i hope the dub keeps up on this and fights till the end. i thought it funny when he signed with the attack since i thought utah was dub property and suprised nobody from the dub would have him listed. i look forward to seeing him centre a line with canucks prospect grabner this year.
keep up the good fight spokane, you didnt back down on the cowan issue i hope you dont back down on this !

Trav
08-03-2006, 05:27 PM
is being very stupid trying to pull off that stunt, maybe the GM thinks Utah is somewhere in the east haha. Like we've heard, Utah is WHL's State so duh he belongs to the WHL unless Owen Sound is planning to move to the WHL ;).

What's there to discuss really? Should be an easy decision for the CHL to make.

Number_4
08-03-2006, 07:44 PM
I agree with the above posters, the rules are pretty clear about who owns his rights. However, where does the kid want to play? OS did a pretty backhanded thing trying to go behind everyones backs to get this kid in their uniform... I just have to wonder if he is yet another player who wants to dictate where they play. Perhaps he doesnt want to play in the dub?

Either way, it should be a pretty easy decision for the CHL. And I would hope that Spokane management would be gracious enough to release Trevor if he wants to play in the OHL.

LifelongChiefsFan
08-03-2006, 08:19 PM
I would hope the CHL sees this as a clear matter and will make a descision quickly. However, this could drag on far longer than it ever should, and might become a distraction that the organization really doesn't need. I would love to see what Trevor can do for this team. I just hope that if the Chiefs do get him, that he is worth what they may potentially have to go through to get him.

Jimmypop316
08-04-2006, 12:28 AM
I agree with the above posters, the rules are pretty clear about who owns his rights. However, where does the kid want to play? OS did a pretty backhanded thing trying to go behind everyones backs to get this kid in their uniform... I just have to wonder if he is yet another player who wants to dictate where they play. Perhaps he doesnt want to play in the dub?

Either way, it should be a pretty easy decision for the CHL. And I would hope that Spokane management would be gracious enough to release Trevor if he wants to play in the OHL.

I don't think it should really matter at all where he wants to play. It shouldnt at the junior level.

SectionNDeserter
08-04-2006, 07:12 AM
Some interesting points made here. Clearly Lewis knows he is on Spokane's protected list, and he signed with Owen Sound--that should probably tell you the chances of him ever being in a Chief's jersey. My guess is that they will find that his contract with Owen Sound is null, and either Spokane will release him to them, or he will go play in the USHL again.

90-91
08-04-2006, 10:53 AM
by Owen Sound should concern CHL officials.

If the CHL has any balls they will not only void the education contract between Lewis & OS but also fine OS for intentionally opening an embarassing can of worms that the CHL now has to publicly sort out.

OS claim that Lewis has been playing in OHL territory (which makes him OHL property), will never hold water.....things have never been done that way & for OS to claim that Iowa is now his residence instead of Utah is just stupid.

The fact that Owen Sound made this public by press conference & photo op showing Lewis teaching kids in OS to skate, makes me think that OS believes if you wish hard enough your dreams will come true, regardless of the reality of the situation.

Every report I've seen on Lewis say that he is a very quality young man.....this whole situation leaves a shadow over him whether he reports here or not. The CHL should make this a public punishment of Owen Sound IMO.

WHL Rules
08-04-2006, 11:04 AM
Will be interesting to see how the CHL handles it, since CHL President David Branch is also the Commissioner of the OHL. And from what I've heard was involved and approved of Owen Sounds actions in the Lewis case.

SeventhHeaven4U
08-04-2006, 11:23 AM
I was reading on the WHL site that a player who is on a dub PPL cannot play for or attend a training camp for another dub team but that player is able to play for and attend training camp for a NON WHL team (and the WHL team still holds that player's rights)....

I'm not familiar with the ins & outs of player rights....
A) does a player sign an actual contract stating his rights are with "X" team or is it just "verbal" or perhaps just an assumed agreement because that player lives within the league's playing zone??

B) Does a dub(CHL) team lose the rights to player "X" when he signs a contract with an NHL team/NHL affiliate team??
If this is true, then the Chiefs no longer owned Lewis' rights when he signed the contract with the Kings in July and wouldn't that mean the Attack had every right to sign him (seeing as he is too young to play AHL/ECHL)?

Hopefully someone can answer these questions for me or lead me in the right direction. Is there a site that has a little more in-depth info on this topic??

SectionNDeserter
08-04-2006, 01:03 PM
I'm not familiar with the ins & outs of player rights....
A) does a player sign an actual contract stating his rights are with "X" team or is it just "verbal" or perhaps just an assumed agreement because that player lives within the league's playing zone?? As I understand it, the team lists (and I would think informs) the player on their 50 man protected list, and submits the request to the WHL office. The player's wishes might factor into whether or not they list him, but I don't think the player has any real say in the matter.


B) Does a dub(CHL) team lose the rights to player "X" when he signs a contract with an NHL team/NHL affiliate team??
If this is true, then the Chiefs no longer owned Lewis' rights when he signed the contract with the Kings in July and wouldn't that mean the Attack had every right to sign him (seeing as he is too young to play AHL/ECHL)?Definately not, the CHL teams own the players junior rights until they either drop them from their list, or trade their rights to another team. Some teams do drop players from their protected lists in some situations after they sign a pro contract, if they really need the room and think there is absolutely no chance of them coming back. Doesn't sound like that is the case here though.

Jimmypop316
08-04-2006, 02:48 PM
Some interesting points made here. Clearly Lewis knows he is on Spokane's protected list, and he signed with Owen Sound--that should probably tell you the chances of him ever being in a Chief's jersey. My guess is that they will find that his contract with Owen Sound is null, and either Spokane will release him to them, or he will go play in the USHL again.

He's 19 years old. Since has signed a contract with the LA Kings, there is no college eligibility for him. He's also too young for the AHL. I think the Kings would prefer him be in major juniors too.

SectionNDeserter
08-04-2006, 02:59 PM
He's 19 years old. Since has signed a contract with the LA Kings, there is no college eligibility for him. He's also too young for the AHL. I think the Kings would prefer him be in major juniors too.Good point, it is probably a pretty good idea for him to do whatever the Kings tell him to do at this point. Perhaps the Kings don't want him to go to Spokane?

chiefgongshow
08-04-2006, 03:00 PM
He's 19 years old. Since has signed a contract with the LA Kings, there is no college eligibility for him. He's also too young for the AHL. I think the Kings would prefer him be in major juniors too.
The age limit is only for players drafted out of major junior. I really want to hear the reasoning as to how OS thinks it was in their right to sign Lewis.

SectionNDeserter
08-04-2006, 03:09 PM
The age limit is only for players drafted out of major junior. I really want to hear the reasoning as to how OS thinks it was in their right to sign Lewis.Also, I think that in order for Lewis to be signed by OS, he would have to be on their protected list. Does the CHL not check to see if other teams have the player on their protected list, when a team lists a player on their protected list? Seems to me that the CHL dropped the ball somewhere along the line.

Number_4
08-04-2006, 09:31 PM
Also, I think that in order for Lewis to be signed by OS, he would have to be on their protected list. Does the CHL not check to see if other teams have the player on their protected list, when a team lists a player on their protected list? Seems to me that the CHL dropped the ball somewhere along the line.

Im pretty sure someone somewhere got a little extra for their help. Either that, or they just didnt bother checking anything out... that wouldnt surprise me, cuz honestly, who expects a situation like this?

I hope for the kids sake that this all gets resolved before the season starts, so that he can play someplace.

Jimmypop316
08-05-2006, 12:31 AM
geez anyone else feel for the chiefs lately, first with the whole Cowan incident, and now this. We can't get a break!

Oh well, I still feel pretty good with the team we have, and will have in the future.

OHLArenaGuide
08-05-2006, 08:06 AM
Also, I think that in order for Lewis to be signed by OS, he would have to be on their protected list. Does the CHL not check to see if other teams have the player on their protected list, when a team lists a player on their protected list? Seems to me that the CHL dropped the ball somewhere along the line.

You're making the assumption that "protected lists" exist elsewhere in the CHL. The WHL is alone in how they draft players - everyone else in the CHL drafts 16 year olds.

The Chiefs are trying to take a WHL-only rule and forcibly apply it to the rest of the CHL. The PPL doesn't force Lewis to play for the Chiefs, it just forces him to play for the Chiefs IF he decides to play WHL.

Read from the WHL website: However, being a member of a WHL team’s 50 Player Protected List does not restrict a player from playing for, or attending a camp of a non-WHL team. The 50 Player Protected List is used strictly to determine which WHL team holds the player’s rights. That quite clearly says it's only determining his WHL status.

Owen Sound isn't going to get "fined" or any of the other ludicrous suggestions here. Moreover, they'll probably win. Spokane's only real argument that applies throughout the CHL is that Lewis is from Utah, but if he can claim Iowa residency he's eligible for the O. The same thing used to happen all the time to Atlantic Canadian prospects who didn't want to play in the Q - Al MacInnis, etc. claiming Ontario residency shortly before the draft so they could play in the O, even though the Q held N.S. and N.B. drafting rights. (This of course was before the Q placed teams all over the region and locked up drafting rights.)

WHL Rules
08-05-2006, 09:02 AM
You're making the assumption that "protected lists" exist elsewhere in the CHL. The WHL is alone in how they draft players - everyone else in the CHL drafts 16 year olds.

The Chiefs are trying to take a WHL-only rule and forcibly apply it to the rest of the CHL. The PPL doesn't force Lewis to play for the Chiefs, it just forces him to play for the Chiefs IF he decides to play WHL.

Read from the WHL website: However, being a member of a WHL team’s 50 Player Protected List does not restrict a player from playing for, or attending a camp of a non-WHL team. The 50 Player Protected List is used strictly to determine which WHL team holds the player’s rights. That quite clearly says it's only determining his WHL status.

Owen Sound isn't going to get "fined" or any of the other ludicrous suggestions here. Moreover, they'll probably win. Spokane's only real argument that applies throughout the CHL is that Lewis is from Utah, but if he can claim Iowa residency he's eligible for the O. The same thing used to happen all the time to Atlantic Canadian prospects who didn't want to play in the Q - Al MacInnis, etc. claiming Ontario residency shortly before the draft so they could play in the O, even though the Q held N.S. and N.B. drafting rights. (This of course was before the Q placed teams all over the region and locked up drafting rights.)

Yeah, but if we follow your logic then any player (drafted or not) can just change the leagues if he wants. Until know the OHL argument was that Lewis was passed over twice in the draft and therefor can decide where he wants to play. This is obviously no longer the argumentation since the WHL drafts different than the OHL or the Q. Now the argument is that Lewis residence is in Idaho. The kid played in Idaho but his family still lives in Utah and until now it has always been where the family lives that decided where he had to play.

SectionNDeserter
08-05-2006, 09:03 AM
You're making the assumption that "protected lists" exist elsewhere in the CHL. The WHL is alone in how they draft players - everyone else in the CHL drafts 16 year olds.The age of the players the teams draft has absolutely nothing to do with protected lists. If they wanted to, I am sure they could put me on their protected list (even though I am ineligible to play junior hockey). Do the other leagues in the CHL not have protected lists/areas, and if not do they have tons of disagreements like this between each other?

SectionNDeserter
08-05-2006, 09:07 AM
The kid played in Idaho but his family still lives in Utah and until now it has always been where the family lives that decided where he had to play.Yeah, this is going to be the deciding point of the whole thing. If they suddenly change this rule, it will open up a can of worms for the CHL that will certainly make future protectected list additions interesting. ;)

90-91
08-05-2006, 10:20 AM
You're making the assumption that "protected lists" exist elsewhere in the CHL. The WHL is alone in how they draft players - everyone else in the CHL drafts 16 year olds.

The Chiefs are trying to take a WHL-only rule and forcibly apply it to the rest of the CHL. The PPL doesn't force Lewis to play for the Chiefs, it just forces him to play for the Chiefs IF he decides to play WHL.

Read from the WHL website: However, being a member of a WHL team’s 50 Player Protected List does not restrict a player from playing for, or attending a camp of a non-WHL team. The 50 Player Protected List is used strictly to determine which WHL team holds the player’s rights. That quite clearly says it's only determining his WHL status.

Owen Sound isn't going to get "fined" or any of the other ludicrous suggestions here. Moreover, they'll probably win. Spokane's only real argument that applies throughout the CHL is that Lewis is from Utah, but if he can claim Iowa residency he's eligible for the O. The same thing used to happen all the time to Atlantic Canadian prospects who didn't want to play in the Q - Al MacInnis, etc. claiming Ontario residency shortly before the draft so they could play in the O, even though the Q held N.S. and N.B. drafting rights. (This of course was before the Q placed teams all over the region and locked up drafting rights.)

I'm not so sure that the WHL is forcibly trying to enforce WHL only rules on the OHL here. I can't imagine that this is the first time a player or agent has wanted the rules to not apply to them, but the rules are in place for the protection of not only the WHL but also the Q & OHL.

If the shoe was on the other foot the OHL would be crying foul as well.

The comment I made earlier about fining Owen Sound was made before I'd heard that CHL Pres. Branch was aware or even involved in this mess.

I'm very curious why Owen Sound made all this public @ a news conference, before the issue of who held his rights was resolved. I really would have expected the CHL to hold off any announcements until all the bases had been covered.

The impression here in Spokane is that Chiefs Mgmt. was blindsided by Lewis signing.

I guess we'll see what happens over the next few weeks, & I really don't expect Chiefs Mgmt. to roll over & play dead on this one.

OHLArenaGuide
08-05-2006, 12:20 PM
Yeah, but if we follow your logic then any player (drafted or not) can just change the leagues if he wants.

He can, if he hasn't been drafted or signed by any team, which makes him a free agent.


Until know the OHL argument was that Lewis was passed over twice in the draft and therefor can decide where he wants to play. This is obviously no longer the argumentation since the WHL drafts different than the OHL or the Q. Now the argument is that Lewis residence is in Idaho. The kid played in Idaho but his family still lives in Utah and until now it has always been where the family lives that decided where he had to play.

No, it hasn't. If it had been then Nova Scotia native Al MacInnis would have played in the Q instead of the O. Exact same scenario.


The age of the players the teams draft has absolutely nothing to do with protected lists. If they wanted to, I am sure they could put me on their protected list (even though I am ineligible to play junior hockey). Do the other leagues in the CHL not have protected lists/areas, and if not do they have tons of disagreements like this between each other?

The OHL and QMJHL do not have protected lists. They do a 15-round draft of 16-year-old players, and any players not drafted or later signed are free agents. If a 16 year old player is not signed or drafted by a team he can play anywhere (see 2006 NHL first rounder Claude Giroux, an Ontario native who was undrafted by the OHL and wound up signing with Gatineau).


I'm not so sure that the WHL is forcibly trying to enforce WHL only rules on the OHL here. I can't imagine that this is the first time a player or agent has wanted the rules to not apply to them, but the rules are in place for the protection of not only the WHL but also the Q & OHL.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. The PPL's are only used in the WHL, and under OHL and QMJHL rules Lewis is a free agent as he was not drafted or signed by any team in another league.


If the shoe was on the other foot the OHL would be crying foul as well.

Undoubtedly. I don't blame the Chiefs for crying foul, I just don't think they will win.


The comment I made earlier about fining Owen Sound was made before I'd heard that CHL Pres. Branch was aware or even involved in this mess.

I'm very curious why Owen Sound made all this public @ a news conference, before the issue of who held his rights was resolved. I really would have expected the CHL to hold off any announcements until all the bases had been covered.

OS GM Mike Futa is a pretty smart hockey man; I doubt he announced the signing without checking his legal bases. What he did is perfectly fine by OHL (or QMJHL) rules.


The impression here in Spokane is that Chiefs Mgmt. was blindsided by Lewis signing.

I guess we'll see what happens over the next few weeks, & I really don't expect Chiefs Mgmt. to roll over & play dead on this one.

Nor should they.

I think that the issue boils down to whether or not being on a PPL makes Lewis exclusively Chiefs property. The residency requirements are moot, because you can move to a new territory a month before the draft and claim residency there (you would be amazed how many Maritime kids in the 1980's moved in with an Aunt or something in Ontario a month before the draft to play for the O instead of the Q). If Lewis had been drafted or signed by the Chiefs, we wouldn't be having this argument. Owen Sound believes that putting a player on a PPL does not guarantee exclusive rights, since the O and Q don't have PPL's.

Under O and Q rules, Lewis is a free agent. The issue is whether W or O/Q rules will be enforced.

HAF
08-05-2006, 01:55 PM
It seems to me that the CHL needs to bring the O,the Q and the Dub together and come up with a universal set of rules and guidelines. If all three leagues were drafting and protecting players the exact same ways we wouldnt be having this dispute. There needs to be universal compliance to ONE system here.

OHLArenaGuide
08-05-2006, 03:01 PM
It seems to me that the CHL needs to bring the O,the Q and the Dub together and come up with a universal set of rules and guidelines. If all three leagues were drafting and protecting players the exact same ways we wouldnt be having this dispute. There needs to be universal compliance to ONE system here.

I agree with that. However it's also worth noting that the WHL is the "odd man out" here. The O and Q's drafting rules are very similar, and for most practical purposes they may as well be identical. My preference would be to see the WHL change to adhere to the rules that 2/3 of the CHL already follows.

Forgive my ignorance, but what was the reasoning behind instituting the Bantam Draft and PPL list in the first place? IIRC the WHL used to draft midgets like the rest of the CHL.

chiefgongshow
08-05-2006, 03:37 PM
The WHL should have been kept in the loop on whatever was going on with the OHL, and the signing of Lewis. None of this would have happened, heck I doubt Lewis would even be going to OS thinking about it. A WHL team could have drafted him, which is likely why the OHL and the CHL commish didnt let the Dub in on their doings.

rinkrat
08-05-2006, 05:49 PM
If Spokane released him,he would have to be waived through the WHL before signing in the OHL.At least I think thats the rule,so Spokane can't just release him to the OHL.

Beaner
08-05-2006, 05:52 PM
The OHL and QMJHL do not have protected lists. They do a 15-round draft of 16-year-old players, and any players not drafted or later signed are free agents. If a 16 year old player is not signed or drafted by a team he can play anywhere (see 2006 NHL first rounder Claude Giroux, an Ontario native who was undrafted by the OHL and wound up signing with Gatineau).


I dont know about the OHL, but the QMJHL doesnt have a "Player Protected list", but the do have what is called a "Player Elgibility list". From what I can tell, it looks very close to the WHL Protected list, but it is 55 players as opposed to the WHL's 50.

from, http://www.lhjmq.qc.ca/navcache/getcontents.php?currentpath=/root/Registrariat/LHJMQ_Reglements_administratifs_20052006_ENG.pdf


INTRODUCTION
1. The eligibility list is in force at the end of the annual draft session
6.01 ELIGIBILITY LIST
Each team has an eligibility list on which must appear the names of all of the players whose services or rights as hockey players belong to the club.
At the beginning of the regular season, the status of each player shall be stated as follows:
a) major junior;
26
b) affiliated player; or
c) inactive player in the QMJHL.
6.02 TOTAL NUMBER OF PLAYERS ON THE ELIGIBILITY LIST
The eligibility list of each team shall not include more than 55 eligible players.
6.03 PLAYERS AUTHORIZED TO BE REGISTERED ON THE ELIGIBILITY LIST
The teams can register the following players on their eligibility list:
a) selected (drafted) players;
b) players having signed a major junior certificate for the current year within the authorized period;
c) players whose names have been kept on the eligibility list;
d) players having signed a training camp form before the opening of the regular season; and
e) each team is entitled to a maximum of five free-agent forms in order to register a player on its list without having the obligation to ask for his release; these forms can be used from the beginning of the regular season until February 10th, at noon.
6.04 IDENTIFICATION OF PLAYERS REGISTERED ON THE ELIGIBILITY LIST
a) Major junior: players having signed a major junior certificate for the current year.
b) Affiliated players: players having signed an affiliated player certificate for the current year.
c) Inactive player in the QMJHL: other players whose names have been legally registered on the eligibility list of a team.
6.05 TRADING OF PLAYERS REGISTERED ON THE ELIGIBILITY LIST
Unless otherwise stated in the regulations, the teams can, during authorized periods, trade the players registered on the eligibility list.
6.06 REMOVAL OF A PLAYER FROM THE ELIGIBILITY LIST
No team shall remove the name of a player registered on its eligibility list before the player has been released and submitted to the selection of other teams in compliance with the regulations, unless the removal has been authorized in compliance with the regulation.
27
6.07 PLAYERS WHO CANNOT BE IDENTIFIED AS AFFILIATED PLAYERS
Twenty year-old players cannot be identified as affiliated players and cannot sign an affiliated player certificate.
6.08 RESTRICTIONS
A player whose name appears on the eligibility list of a team cannot play for another one. However, during the training camp, the player may play for another team as long as his name is registered at that time on the eligibility list of a QMJHL team and that the two teams have agreed to this in writing and have previously informed the League of their intention. The teams shall benefit from this regulation until the first trading period of the season held in August, except for 16 year-old or European players.
6.09 FROZEN LISTS
The eligibility list shall be frozen at midnight February 10th of each year until 24 hours before the beginning of the annual draft session.
Any player whose name does not appear on the eligibility list may be selected by the other teams at the annual draft session.
BY-LAW 7

Any way its still a big mess as you have 3 leagues, under one umbrella league, all working under different rules. Time for the 3 leagues to step up and all get onto the same page.

---

I'm curious as to how the OHL works in regards to the player lists since they dont have a PPL. Can they have as many players in their "system" as they want? Could a team conceivabley have 100 Kids signed and in the system, with draft picks and Free Agent Signings?

Beaner
08-05-2006, 05:58 PM
Forgive my ignorance, but what was the reasoning behind instituting the Bantam Draft and PPL list in the first place? IIRC the WHL used to draft midgets like the rest of the CHL.

If anyone knows it would be NWBruin. Hopefully he can pop in and explain the reasons behind it at the time it was instituted.

90-91
08-06-2006, 10:55 AM
I agree with that. However it's also worth noting that the WHL is the "odd man out" here. The O and Q's drafting rules are very similar, and for most practical purposes they may as well be identical. My preference would be to see the WHL change to adhere to the rules that 2/3 of the CHL already follows.

Forgive my ignorance, but what was the reasoning behind instituting the Bantam Draft and PPL list in the first place? IIRC the WHL used to draft midgets like the rest of the CHL.


Even though 2/3 of the CHL uses similar drafting rules, this particular situation has the OHL & WHL squared off.....we can debate the WHL adopting OHL & Q listing & drafting procedures another day since it won't apply to this situation.

I would think that some consideration would be given to the Chiefs since the acted first in trying to secure Lewis's playing rights, while following established WHL rules.....while Owen Sound came in after the fact to use established OHL rules, but it does appear that the Chiefs acted first. Sitting here in Spokane (with my UNobjective opinion) it appears to be the OHL trying to impose their rules on another league.

The press conference could also be the OHL backing the CHL into a corner, since I'm sure that the CHL will try to avoid public embarasment & the press conference made this a public situation before it had to be.

On the other hand the fact that OS GM says he had the blessing of CHL Pres. Branch (if true) prior to the press conference, makes me question Branch's objectivity in this case.

SectionNDeserter
08-06-2006, 12:30 PM
Even though 2/3 of the CHL uses similar drafting rules, this particular situation has the OHL & WHL squared off.Actually the QMJHL has a protected list too, they just call it an eligibility list. Different name, same function. The OHL is the odd man out in this case.

it appears to be the OHL trying to impose their rules on another league.Have to disagree there, they seem to have much fewer rules and guidelines that they have to follow than the other 2 Major junior leagues. They simply just don't recognize the rules the other 2 leagues have, even though they are part of a larger league.

PensFan101
08-06-2006, 03:22 PM
Hey long time reader first time poster here. I happen to live in Owen Sound and am really exceited about Lewis coming here. He's going to be an absolute star... Thing is you guys should just forget about it because obviously he isn't going back out west. Whether or not the rules state otherwise, the fact is that Lewis is going to be in an Attack jersey this year. A real loss for WHL fans, but with London finally past their golden era (for the most part), the Attack now have a legitimate shot at beating those guys. Honestly, the last three games of our series against them felt rigged. Anyway, good luck, but Lewis is here to stay out east.

Beaner
08-06-2006, 03:53 PM
Thing is you guys should just forget about it because obviously he isn't going back out west. Whether or not the rules state otherwise, the fact is that Lewis is going to be in an Attack jersey this year.

I agree with you, that Lewis will be in an Attack Jersey this year.

The thing I am more concerned with is the type of precedent that this will set, in regards to player movements across the 3 leagues.

If the 50 player protected list and territorial rights are ignored by leagues, then whats next?

Jimmypop316
08-06-2006, 03:58 PM
If the 50 player protected list and territorial rights are ignored by leagues, then whats next?

Exactly. This is probably the most important part of this argument right here.

SectionNDeserter
08-06-2006, 04:44 PM
I agree with you, that Lewis will be in an Attack Jersey this year.I agree too.

Jimmypop316
08-09-2006, 04:11 AM
Something interesting I saw on the USA development camp roster was that Trevor Lewis team was listed as TBD. But then again so was Bobby Ryan's so that really doesn't matter.

I am wondering if this situation will be resolved, because theres only a week and a half or so before training camp begins for the CHL. They are looking long and hard into this though, and I hope the reasoning for the decision will be thorough and well explained.

Dwight Schrute
08-09-2006, 08:57 PM
there should be a decision soon. whats the hold up it shouldnt be that difficult of a decision. chl rules and guidelines dictate it pretty clearly.

Beaner
08-10-2006, 12:09 AM
there should be a decision soon. whats the hold up it shouldnt be that difficult of a decision. chl rules and guidelines dictate it pretty clearly.

Therre will be a decision soon, but I doubt any of us will get any of the reasons as to why they made their decision.

I doubt they even have a press release.

Tinner
08-10-2006, 09:44 AM
when respected hockey people read the Hockey Canada rules and dissect them, it sounds like the CHL should be ruling in favor of the Spokane Chiefs. The main point of contention is the geographical boundaries and the subsequent agreements. The Hockey Canada rules agree with the WHL's and Spokane's position on the matter. Any ruling on the matter seems a mute point because there shouldn't be anything to rule on other than re-affirming the existing boundary agreements. At this point, the signing of him is of no consequence and means nothing until a decision is finalized.

OHLArenaGuide
08-10-2006, 12:46 PM
I apologize for misleading people somewhat. I've done some digging into this situation and my understanding of it was somewhat flawed. Here's the real scoop.

This was originally posted on another board and I'm piecing this together from a couple quotes.

OHL and QMJHL teams also have 50-player protected lists. For all 3 leagues, that protected list gives the team CHL rights to the player. The players on those OHL lists are players that have been drafted into the OHL. So, for example, Al Montoya was on Windsor's protected list once they drafted him. He remained there until the Spits decided to drop him. There isn't any way to get on an O or Q PPL except by being drafted.

The WHL does it a little differently. The first opportunity teams have to put a player on a protected list is their bantam draft (one year younger than the OHL draft). Once a player goes undrafted there, he can be added to any team's protected list first come-first serve. Usually, to add a player to the protected list, you have to drop a player unless the team has an open spot on its 50 list. In the OHL, teams reduce their protected list from 50 players to 35 before the OHL Draft so they have room to add the 15 players they'd pick in the draft.

Spokane added Trevor Lewis to their protected list BEFORE the NHL Draft (about 2 weeks before). But the wheels had already been turning to get him to Owen Sound before that. Philadelphia was going to draft Lewis and send him to Owen Sound due to the connections between Ron Hextall and the Attack. Hextall (I think) is Lewis's agent and he's best friends with Mike Stothers, the coach of the Attack (they played together for the Flyers).

Essentially, Owen Sound was already negotiating with Lewis and had him sign an OHL card before Spokane was interested. However, when the Chiefs found out Lewis was going CHL, they quickly added him to their 50-man PPL to snap up his draft rights and hopefully "scoop" Owen Sound.

The debate here is - what happened first? Did Owen Sound sign him (and therefore gain his CHL rights), or did Spokane add him to the protected list first (which would give Spokane his CHL rights). For the most part, that's all this is about.

CrushKillDestroy
08-10-2006, 03:29 PM
You state that the only way to get on an OHL player list is to be drafted by an OHL team.

Near the end of your post you are questioning what order events unfolded in. You contemplate whether Lewis signed an OHL card and therefore became Owen Sound property.

Lewis was never drafted by an OHL team, so how can he then become the property of an OHL team?

nivek_wahs
08-10-2006, 03:54 PM
Spokane added Trevor Lewis to their protected list BEFORE the NHL Draft (about 2 weeks before). But the wheels had already been turning to get him to Owen Sound before that. Philadelphia was going to draft Lewis and send him to Owen Sound due to the connections between Ron Hextall and the Attack. Hextall (I think) is Lewis's agent and he's best friends with Mike Stothers, the coach of the Attack (they played together for the Flyers).


Ron Hextall is the Los Angeles Kings Asistant General Manager.

rinkrat
08-10-2006, 04:45 PM
It still comes back around to territorial rights.IMHO

OHLArenaGuide
08-10-2006, 05:04 PM
You state that the only way to get on an OHL player list is to be drafted by an OHL team.

Near the end of your post you are questioning what order events unfolded in. You contemplate whether Lewis signed an OHL card and therefore became Owen Sound property.

Lewis was never drafted by an OHL team, so how can he then become the property of an OHL team?

He was signed as a free agent. I don't believe that players under contract count towards PPL totals (although I am still learning, I may be wrong).


It still comes back around to territorial rights.IMHO

It comes down to whether he was officially Owen Sound property before being placed on Spokane's list. If his signing with the Attack predated the Chiefs putting him on the PPL then they have no right to him, as he was not on anyone anywhere's list and therefore an unattached free agent.

chiefgongshow
08-10-2006, 05:54 PM
I apologize for misleading people somewhat. I've done some digging into this situation and my understanding of it was somewhat flawed. Here's the real scoop.

This was originally posted on another board and I'm piecing this together from a couple quotes.

OHL and QMJHL teams also have 50-player protected lists. For all 3 leagues, that protected list gives the team CHL rights to the player. The players on those OHL lists are players that have been drafted into the OHL. So, for example, Al Montoya was on Windsor's protected list once they drafted him. He remained there until the Spits decided to drop him. There isn't any way to get on an O or Q PPL except by being drafted.

The WHL does it a little differently. The first opportunity teams have to put a player on a protected list is their bantam draft (one year younger than the OHL draft). Once a player goes undrafted there, he can be added to any team's protected list first come-first serve. Usually, to add a player to the protected list, you have to drop a player unless the team has an open spot on its 50 list. In the OHL, teams reduce their protected list from 50 players to 35 before the OHL Draft so they have room to add the 15 players they'd pick in the draft.

Spokane added Trevor Lewis to their protected list BEFORE the NHL Draft (about 2 weeks before). But the wheels had already been turning to get him to Owen Sound before that. Philadelphia was going to draft Lewis and send him to Owen Sound due to the connections between Ron Hextall and the Attack. Hextall (I think) is Lewis's agent and he's best friends with Mike Stothers, the coach of the Attack (they played together for the Flyers).

Essentially, Owen Sound was already negotiating with Lewis and had him sign an OHL card before Spokane was interested. However, when the Chiefs found out Lewis was going CHL, they quickly added him to their 50-man PPL to snap up his draft rights and hopefully "scoop" Owen Sound.

The debate here is - what happened first? Did Owen Sound sign him (and therefore gain his CHL rights), or did Spokane add him to the protected list first (which would give Spokane his CHL rights). For the most part, that's all this is about.
How does anyone outside of the Chiefs, WHL, Lewis family and now OHL know when Lewis was listed by Spokane? I think this matter is already solved if its a matter of who got to Lewis first. The player contract Lewis would have to have signed would show the date officially, as would the fax showing the Chiefs listed Lewis.

HAF
08-10-2006, 06:10 PM
It shouldnt be a factor of who listed him first. He is a Utah resident which puts him in the WHL territory. In order for him to even be eligible to play in the OHL or Qmjhl doesnt he have to be waived by every other WHL team? Obviously he never hit waivers or we would never be having this discussion.

OHLArenaGuide
08-10-2006, 07:04 PM
It shouldnt be a factor of who listed him first. He is a Utah resident which puts him in the WHL territory. In order for him to even be eligible to play in the OHL or Qmjhl doesnt he have to be waived by every other WHL team? Obviously he never hit waivers or we would never be having this discussion.

That's only for players who have played in one of the leagues, or who are under contract. Players who "slip through the cracks" as Lewis or Claude Giroux did can play anywhere.

And Owen Sound didn't have the contract with Lewis done when Spokane placed him on the PPL, but they had him signed to a player card and were negotiating. This is another post from another board:


Lewis' signing of an OHL player card, assuming it was done and I have no reason to doubt that, meant that his NCAA eligiblity was forfeited at that point. No "let's wait until we see what happens with the NHL Draft, who takes me and see if I sign". Once a major junior player card gets signed, bye bye NCAA hockey.

So, to me, the plot thickens. Sounds as if OS has this plan worked out with Philly, and gets a clandestine agreement from Lewis (say he signs the card June 1st, just as an example). But the deal is not to make it public until after the NHL Draft, when the "right" team drafts and subsequently signs Lewis. Then, after this is done, OS files the player signature card with the league. Everyone's happy.

BUT............................................... .....................................

Spokane gums up the works by placing Lewis on their protected list (say mid-June, prior to the NHL Draft).

So now the debate becomes, did Lewis sign an OHL playing card prior to being placed on the Spokane list? (Maybe, quite possibly yes).

Is said playing card "effective" prior to being filed with the playing league? Dunno. That's going to be the big sticking point, IMO. And it may end up being a court that decides the question.

It will be interesting as I am sure Branch/Robson and the rest of the CHL brass will want to get this taken care of in an expeditious manner that will avoid any legal wrangling, because that could open up a massive can of worms that no one wants. Bet you see some kind of deal cut, with renumeration ($$$) heading Spokane's way and Lewis playing in the Sound. Just my guess.

This is from the Owen Sound Sun-Times:


"We just made L.A. aware that we'd signed him for his junior rights if that was the route they wanted to go and that seemed to be the way he wanted to go," said Futa.

Normally Lewis would have been Western Hockey League property, but since he went through two drafts without being selected by one of those teams, Futa signed him June 1 and filed the paperwork with the OHL and consequently the CHL before a WHL club could sign him.

While Futa is expecting an appeal by the WHL, he's been assured that all of his paperwork is in order and that Lewis will suit up for the Attack next season.

Lewis has signed a three-year deal with the Kings and given up his college eligibility.

And once again I apologize for posting confusing information earlier, my understanding of the situation was flawed.

Number_4
08-10-2006, 10:39 PM
Spokane added Trevor Lewis to their protected list BEFORE the NHL Draft (about 2 weeks before). But the wheels had already been turning to get him to Owen Sound before that. Philadelphia was going to draft Lewis and send him to Owen Sound due to the connections between Ron Hextall and the Attack. Hextall (I think) is Lewis's agent and he's best friends with Mike Stothers, the coach of the Attack (they played together for the Flyers).

Essentially, Owen Sound was already negotiating with Lewis and had him sign an OHL card before Spokane was interested. However, when the Chiefs found out Lewis was going CHL, they quickly added him to their 50-man PPL to snap up his draft rights and hopefully "scoop" Owen Sound.


I dont know anything about dates or such, but doing a little internet search I found an article in the Salt Lake Tribune written on July 15th that at the very end states that Lewis...
Signed a three-year, entry-level contract with the Los Angeles Kings on Friday and is expected to begin his pro career in the junior-level Ontario Hockey League this fall so we know that OS was at least interested or such before that date. Still a ways away from two weeks before the draft tho....

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_4055974?source=rss

Beaner
08-11-2006, 12:14 AM
I apologize for misleading people somewhat. I've done some digging into this situation and my understanding of it was somewhat flawed. Here's the real scoop.

NP. We've all done that. Thanks for the update on the corrections to the OHL/Q 50 PPL Lists.

PS: The Q's list is actually 55 Players.



The debate here is - what happened first? Did Owen Sound sign him (and therefore gain his CHL rights), or did Spokane add him to the protected list first (which would give Spokane his CHL rights). For the most part, that's all this is about.

I think the other part of the debate is Lewis a Free Agent able to sign anywhere he wants, or is he at 19 still under the umbrella of the WHL?


He was signed as a free agent. I don't believe that players under contract count towards PPL totals (although I am still learning, I may be wrong).

As far as I understand it, and I have nothing to back this up, but if a player is signed AND playing in the NHL, then he doesn't count against your 50PPL, but they remain under said WHL's team rights.

If they get sent back down, then they count against the 50PPL.

Since Lewis is not playing in the NHL, yet, he would count against the 50PPL.

I dont believe a pro-contract signing has any effect on the 50PPL, you still count against it.

Jimmypop316
08-11-2006, 12:16 AM
"We just made L.A. aware that we'd signed him for his junior rights if that was the route they wanted to go and that seemed to be the way he wanted to go," said Futa.

Normally Lewis would have been Western Hockey League property, but since he went through two drafts without being selected by one of those teams, Futa signed him June 1 and filed the paperwork with the OHL and consequently the CHL before a WHL club could sign him.

While Futa is expecting an appeal by the WHL, he's been assured that all of his paperwork is in order and that Lewis will suit up for the Attack next season.

Lewis has signed a three-year deal with the Kings and given up his college eligibility.


Please please please please tell me when a player has ever been passed up in a WHL draft before, and then been drafted the next year. Thats right, never. I don't really think people understand that the draft in the dub is set up a lot more different than the other leagues in the CHL.

Personally if given the choice I would totally prefer the draft that the OHL and Q have.

chiefgongshow
08-11-2006, 01:15 AM
I think the other part of the debate is Lewis a Free Agent able to sign anywhere he wants, or is he at 19 still under the umbrella of the WHL?
I would think hes not a free agent as he is still eligible for the WHL draft I think. There was an 18 yr old who was just drafted this past year if I remember correctly. Im guessing that Lewis was listed much earlier than than the 2 weeks before the draft some other messageboards are claiming. If he wasnt listed, I could see Vancouver or another possible contender drafting him for their run for the 07 Memorial Cup.



As far as I understand it, and I have nothing to back this up, but if a player is signed AND playing in the NHL, then he doesn't count against your 50PPL, but they remain under said WHL's team rights.

If they get sent back down, then they count against the 50PPL.

Since Lewis is not playing in the NHL, yet, he would count against the 50PPL.

I dont believe a pro-contract signing has any effect on the 50PPL, you still count against it.
I believe you are correct. Zimmerman for example will still count even though he has already signed with NJ.

OHLArenaGuide
08-11-2006, 06:55 AM
I think the other part of the debate is Lewis a Free Agent able to sign anywhere he wants, or is he at 19 still under the umbrella of the WHL?

I don't think that's really a debate. The system of territorial rights is set up to protect local kids from being forced to play too far from home and for other reasons, but it's not 100% rigid. Again, I'll use the example of Claude Giroux - in spite of the French-sounding name, he's an Franco-Ontarian kid from Hearst, in the far north of the province. He apparently wanted nothing more than to play in the OHL, but his draft year passed and he wasn't drafted. He played in the Central Ontario Junior A League as a 16-year-old, and then the next season he still couldn't catch on with an OHL team. He was then offered a tryout with the Olympiques in the Q and caught on, and wound up scoring 103 points in 69 games and being taken in the first round of the NHL Entry Draft. All 20 OHL teams would love a do-over on him, of course, but he was a free agent due to the fact that he wasn't drafted or signed by any OHL teams.

Lewis is the same scenario, he was passed over from both the draft and PPLs by the W for a number of years and was free to sign anywhere else. However the only reason why he was passed over was because he was supposed to go to college, and so when the WHL heard he was going to play junior, Spokane tried to snap him up quick.

But the point is that territorial rights don't apply to kids who are passed over; the system allows them to play for any CHL team that wants them. There are 59 CHL teams right now, and if 58 don't want you and one does, the system is set up to allow you to play for that one team no matter who you are and who they are.

CrushKillDestroy
08-11-2006, 07:29 AM
Giroux had no OHL teams interested in him, and had not been placed on any OHL team's protected list.

Lewis was placed on Spokane's protected list, and is from a US state that is considered by the CHL to be WHL territory.

As a sidenote, the WHL Draft sees Canadian-born players drafted in the calendar year in which they turn 15 years of age, and American-born players drafted in the calendar year in which they turn 16 years of age. Any player is only eligible to be drafted in the WHL draft once, as stated by another poster in an earlier thread. You can't be passed over twice in the WHL draft.

OHLArenaGuide
08-11-2006, 07:51 AM
Lewis was placed on Spokane's protected list, and is from a US state that is considered by the CHL to be WHL territory.

AFTER he had already signed an OHL player card. That's the debate here.

Beaner
08-11-2006, 08:49 AM
But the point is that territorial rights don't apply to kids who are passed over; the system allows them to play for any CHL team that wants them. There are 59 CHL teams right now, and if 58 don't want you and one does, the system is set up to allow you to play for that one team no matter who you are and who they are.

Yes, I understand that, I'm just wondering at what age that kicks in (Free Agnecy for the entire league), for kids under the WHL Territorial umbrella, since the WHL draft works differently then the O and the Q.

I guess 18 would make sense, because that would give a WHL team 3 years (15,16,17), to put a kid on their 50PPL.

If only they would just publish that information for us.

So I guess it comes down to who had him signed/listed first. And none of us know that 100%.

OHLArenaGuide
08-11-2006, 09:34 AM
If only they would just publish that information for us.

So I guess it comes down to who had him signed/listed first. And none of us know that 100%.

That's the long and the short of it. None of us know completely what's going on and none of us know completely the rules that will decide what happens.

CrushKillDestroy
08-11-2006, 09:39 AM
If the OHL card was not registered with the OHL prior to Spokane listing Lewis, it won't matter when he signed it.

If Lewis' name went on Spokane's list prior to him signing an OHL card AND that card being registered with the OHL head office, his CHL playing rights would belong to Spokane.

By virtue of the fact that no decision has been announced to this point, one may assume that Spokane has a legitimate claim to Lewis (no properly-registered OHL player card). Because Lewis has indicated a desire to play in the OHL, it is likely some sort of settlement is either being worked out, or Spokane is sticking to their claim on Lewis and is willing to go to arbitration on the matter.

OHLArenaGuide
08-11-2006, 12:27 PM
If the OHL card was not registered with the OHL prior to Spokane listing Lewis, it won't matter when he signed it.

If Lewis' name went on Spokane's list prior to him signing an OHL card AND that card being registered with the OHL head office, his CHL playing rights would belong to Spokane.

Again, from the Owen Sound Sun-Times:

Normally Lewis would have been Western Hockey League property, but since he went through two drafts without being selected by one of those teams, Futa signed him June 1 and filed the paperwork with the OHL and consequently the CHL before a WHL club could sign him.

It would appear that June 1 is the cut-off date; if he was on Spokane's list prior to that then the Chiefs probably have the best claim.

chiefgongshow
08-11-2006, 12:40 PM
I don't think that's really a debate. The system of territorial rights is set up to protect local kids from being forced to play too far from home and for other reasons, but it's not 100% rigid. Again, I'll use the example of Claude Giroux - in spite of the French-sounding name, he's an Franco-Ontarian kid from Hearst, in the far north of the province. He apparently wanted nothing more than to play in the OHL, but his draft year passed and he wasn't drafted. He played in the Central Ontario Junior A League as a 16-year-old, and then the next season he still couldn't catch on with an OHL team. He was then offered a tryout with the Olympiques in the Q and caught on, and wound up scoring 103 points in 69 games and being taken in the first round of the NHL Entry Draft. All 20 OHL teams would love a do-over on him, of course, but he was a free agent due to the fact that he wasn't drafted or signed by any OHL teams.

Lewis is the same scenario, he was passed over from both the draft and PPLs by the W for a number of years and was free to sign anywhere else. However the only reason why he was passed over was because he was supposed to go to college, and so when the WHL heard he was going to play junior, Spokane tried to snap him up quick.

But the point is that territorial rights don't apply to kids who are passed over; the system allows them to play for any CHL team that wants them. There are 59 CHL teams right now, and if 58 don't want you and one does, the system is set up to allow you to play for that one team no matter who you are and who they are.
Did Giroux have to pass through league waivers first before being able to play elsewhere? If no one in the OHL wanted Giroux, he would pass through waivers, giving the impression that territorial rights dont apply to kids passed over. I think WHL rules are that for a player in their territory to play Major Junior elsewhere, every team in the league has to pass him up.

PWH
08-11-2006, 02:34 PM
that Spokane added Trevor Lewis on June 12th. They dropped Patrick Rogan to make room for Lewis on the PPL.

90-91
08-11-2006, 05:59 PM
The Scouting News has posted 2 stories (one yesterday & one today) that say Owen Sound fans will not see Trevor Lewis play there.

WHL sources say that his rights are owned 100% by Spokane.

Lewis was listed the 12th. of June by Spokane & had been listed by Swift Current & Spokane @ different times, but had been dropped after he stated his intentions of going the college route, but he was listed again by Spokane prior to the NHL draft.

Even if Spokane HAD NOT listed him, he would have had to clear WHL waivers prior to an OHL or QMJHL team signing him.

The matter is now in arbitration through the CHL.

They also said that if Lewis played in OS that it would come with a huge price tag, but I really can't see that happening since all the WHL teams would have to sign off on it.

OHLArenaGuide
08-11-2006, 07:16 PM
Now I feel like I'm just cutting and pasting, but this is the response to that from one of the more knowledgable posters on the OHL board:


If he was signed to a WHL contract, then yes, he'd have to be waived through the entire league before he could go to the OHL or QMJHL. That's the same way players from the OHL end up in the Q, etc. Sniderman to Moncton is an example of this, or the guys Brampton has picked up from the WHL over the past few years.

Waivers is just a time between having the player, and releasing the player. Before you release him you have to waive him.

Let's say it's May 15th, Trevor Lewis is not on any WHL team's protected list, who is going to put him on waivers to allow him to pass through? Nobody can put him on waivers if he doesn't exist in the league, and if he's not on any protected lists, then he doesn't exist.

I don't believe a team has to put a player through waivers to delete him from their protected list. They just remove him, and then he can be put on any other team's protected list after a 7 day waiting period...I do know that for sure.

I don't believe Futa/Branch necessarily screwed up on this at all. Futa probably called Branch pre-June 12th to say they were looking at this kid and he's not protected by any WHL team.

I'm going to stop predicting what's going to happen since this has become more confusing than quantum theory.

Jimmypop316
08-12-2006, 12:27 AM
Now I feel like I'm just cutting and pasting, but this is the response to that from one of the more knowledgable posters on the OHL board:



I'm going to stop predicting what's going to happen since this has become more confusing than quantum theory.

i was wondering if the waiver rule would have been through with this.

Any player that wants to go through to a different league, has to pass through a league waiver first beforehand. I was unsure if this was the case for Lewis, but I guess that might be the case.

Beaner
08-12-2006, 12:38 AM
i was wondering if the waiver rule would have been through with this.

Any player that wants to go through to a different league, has to pass through a league waiver first beforehand. I was unsure if this was the case for Lewis, but I guess that might be the case.


I dont think the waiver rule applies since any WHL team at any time was free to put him on their 50 PPL for the last few years.

Effectively he had already gone thru waivers since no one put him ontot heir list.

I remember when Robin Big Snake changed leagues, he had to go thru waivers, but that was because he was signed to Portland before he was cut and then choose to move, so he had to be waived first.

Jimmypop316
08-12-2006, 03:37 AM
I dont think the waiver rule applies since any WHL team at any time was free to put him on their 50 PPL for the last few years.

Effectively he had already gone thru waivers since no one put him ontot heir list.

I remember when Robin Big Snake changed leagues, he had to go thru waivers, but that was because he was signed to Portland before he was cut and then choose to move, so he had to be waived first.

Yea that was the situation that I learned about the whole waive rule. I saw him playing on the OHL and was like how'd that happen. Wasn't too sure if it applied to players who hadn't played in the league and hadn't been cut/etc.

Trav
08-12-2006, 10:29 AM
that he's been listed a couple times already so he should have to go through waivers but then again he's listed now so he's Spokane's property. I know the WHL is the best league in the world but that doesnt give the OHL the right to try and STEAL players. What, they cant find enough players in their boundries? lol. Obiviously not.

SeventhHeaven4U
08-12-2006, 10:49 PM
Does anyone subscribe to The Scouting News?? http://www.thescoutingnews.com/

They have some interesting things to say about Lewis and Futa and that the OHL will not see him playing for them. The full article is unavailable unless you're a paid member :( but they do give a couple of blurbs about what's going on from their point of view.

Jimmypop316
08-12-2006, 11:00 PM
I like the quote for the preview, "Officials in the league who were contacted by the scouting news yesterday were shocked to see Mike Futa make such a bold move, which circumvented every set boundary recruiting rule in place between the two leagues."

http://www.thescoutingnews.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1483&Itemid=2

90-91
08-13-2006, 10:07 AM
Does anyone subscribe to The Scouting News?? http://www.thescoutingnews.com/

They have some interesting things to say about Lewis and Futa and that the OHL will not see him playing for them. The full article is unavailable unless you're a paid member :( but they do give a couple of blurbs about what's going on from their point of view.

I belong to their site. Some time today they will start up their message boards again (but for members only this time) I'd imagine there'll be some interesting posts about this on there.

The article does also open up the possibility that OS could get fined for their actions, which makes me believe that Branch didn't know what was going on.

Unfortunately The Scouting News people were smart enough to make it impossible to cut & paste to another site or even print their articles. :(

OHLArenaGuide
08-13-2006, 10:26 AM
The article does also open up the possibility that OS could get fined for their actions, which makes me believe that Branch didn't know what was going on.

I don't think there is any conceivable way OS will get fined. They had league approval for what they were doing every single step of the way, so it would be hypocritical for that league to then turn around and fine them.

90-91
08-13-2006, 10:42 AM
I don't think there is any conceivable way OS will get fined. They had league approval for what they were doing every single step of the way, so it would be hypocritical for that league to then turn around and fine them.

I'm sorry....I just read the article again and it doesn't say fined....it says "it will be interesting to see what sort of tampering charges, if any, will be handed down in this case by the CHL"

Where, other than the OS GM & message boards, are you hearing that Branch & other CHL officials knew about the situation prior to the press conference? The article make it sound as if they were left in the dark as well.

90-91
08-13-2006, 10:50 AM
I'm sorry....I just read the article again and it doesn't say fined....it says "it will be interesting to see what sort of tampering charges, if any, will be handed down in this case by the CHL"

Where, other than the OS GM & message boards, are you hearing that Branch & other CHL officials knew about the situation prior to the press conference? The article make it sound as if they were left in the dark as well.
An OHL source they also quoted said "As for the signing of Trevor Lewis, It seems very simple to me, if he was on Spokanes protected list, then Owen Sound cannot sign him"

So it seems even some OHL people seem to think it's a cut & dried deal.

OHLArenaGuide
08-13-2006, 11:39 AM
An OHL source they also quoted said "As for the signing of Trevor Lewis, It seems very simple to me, if he was on Spokanes protected list, then Owen Sound cannot sign him"

So it seems even some OHL people seem to think it's a cut & dried deal.

Yes, IF he was on Spokane's protected list BEFORE the Owen Sound deal was done, then it is a simple, open-and-shut case. The issue is that Owen Sound had his signature (if rumours are to be believed) about 12 days before he went on that list.

Beaner
08-13-2006, 12:14 PM
Yes, IF he was on Spokane's protected list BEFORE the Owen Sound deal was done, then it is a simple, open-and-shut case. The issue is that Owen Sound had his signature (if rumours are to be believed) about 12 days before he went on that list.

Well from what I have read from this board and all the others it looks like the order of events is as follows.

1- Spokane Drops Lewis from their 50ppl.
2- Owen Sound, signs Lewis to a CHL card, but DOES NOT turn it into the CHL, for whatever reasons. They tell no-one except CHL Commisioner Branch what they are doing.
3- Spokane, adds Lewis to their 50PPL list on or about June 12th.
4- Lewis gets drafted and signs a pro-contract with LA.
5- OS holds a press conference and announces they have signed Lewis to play with them for the upcoming season. They obviuously turn in the crad at this time.
6- Spokane cries Foul.
7- Internet message boards go crazy with rumor and speculation over this, as posters try to figure out the CHL, OHL, and WHL rules with limited information. :D

So, as I see it right now, the questions are....

1) Did OS have him signed to a card before Spokane listed him?

2) If OS had him signed to a card before Spokane listed him, when did they turn in that card to the CHL?

3) Does the date of the signing effectively list said player with your team, or is it the date of when the card was submitted to the CHL?

I have to think that the date on the card will mean nothing, it only matters when it was actually turned into the league, hence why this is taking such a long time.

OS and the WHL may be trying to work out some sort of compensation deal now too, which will allow Lewis to play in OS.

I would also figure that there are a bunch of revisions being done to the CHL player transfer agreement to prevent another mess of this magnitude from happening again.

OHLArenaGuide
08-13-2006, 12:42 PM
Well from what I have read from this board and all the others it looks like the order of events is as follows.

1- Spokane Drops Lewis from their 50ppl.
2- Owen Sound, signs Lewis to a CHL card, but DOES NOT turn it into the CHL, for whatever reasons. They tell no-one except CHL Commisioner Branch what they are doing.
3- Spokane, adds Lewis to their 50PPL list on or about June 12th.
4- Lewis gets drafted and signs a pro-contract with LA.
5- OS holds a press conference and announces they have signed Lewis to play with them for the upcoming season. They obviuously turn in the crad at this time.
6- Spokane cries Foul.
7- Internet message boards go crazy with rumor and speculation over this, as posters try to figure out the CHL, OHL, and WHL rules with limited information. :D

So, as I see it right now, the questions are....

1) Did OS have him signed to a card before Spokane listed him?

2) If OS had him signed to a card before Spokane listed him, when did they turn in that card to the CHL?

3) Does the date of the signing effectively list said player with your team, or is it the date of when the card was submitted to the CHL?

I have to think that the date on the card will mean nothing, it only matters when it was actually turned into the league, hence why this is taking such a long time.

OS and the WHL may be trying to work out some sort of compensation deal now too, which will allow Lewis to play in OS.

I would also figure that there are a bunch of revisions being done to the CHL player transfer agreement to prevent another mess of this magnitude from happening again.

That sounds pretty much correct to me. I think we can all agree on the best solution, though - he should play this upcoming season in the Q.

Preferably with the Fog Devils. :D

Beaner
08-13-2006, 12:46 PM
That sounds pretty much correct to me. I think we can all agree on the best solution, though - he should play this upcoming season in the Q.

Preferably with the Fog Devils. :D

I agree but I bet he ends up in Rimouski. :laugh:

90-91
08-13-2006, 04:48 PM
Well from what I have read from this board and all the others it looks like the order of events is as follows.

1- Spokane Drops Lewis from their 50ppl.
2- Owen Sound, signs Lewis to a CHL card, but DOES NOT turn it into the CHL, for whatever reasons. They tell no-one except CHL Commisioner Branch what they are doing.
3- Spokane, adds Lewis to their 50PPL list on or about June 12th.
4- Lewis gets drafted and signs a pro-contract with LA.
5- OS holds a press conference and announces they have signed Lewis to play with them for the upcoming season. They obviuously turn in the crad at this time.
6- Spokane cries Foul.
7- Internet message boards go crazy with rumor and speculation over this, as posters try to figure out the CHL, OHL, and WHL rules with limited information. :D

So, as I see it right now, the questions are....

1) Did OS have him signed to a card before Spokane listed him?

2) If OS had him signed to a card before Spokane listed him, when did they turn in that card to the CHL?

3) Does the date of the signing effectively list said player with your team, or is it the date of when the card was submitted to the CHL?

I have to think that the date on the card will mean nothing, it only matters when it was actually turned into the league, hence why this is taking such a long time.

OS and the WHL may be trying to work out some sort of compensation deal now too, which will allow Lewis to play in OS.

I would also figure that there are a bunch of revisions being done to the CHL player transfer agreement to prevent another mess of this magnitude from happening again.

It appears from everything I could dig up that, OS had no right to be negotiating with (much less signing) Lewis since he never cleared waivers through the WHL.

I can't find anywhere except message boards where anyone has said anything about OS having Branch's & the CHLs approval to hold the press conference.

I don't believe OS had Lewis signed before the NHL draft because it has been reported that the OS GM was working both the Kings & Flyer Mgmt (although I guess that would explain why they would keep the signing secret). while it was still up in the air as to who was going to draft Lewis since both had shown a lot of interest. It becomes a moot point really since it now appears that Spokane had him listed prior to the NHL draft any way.

So since Spokane appears to have had him listed, which means that the WHL waiver issue never comes into affect, which in turn means that OHL & Q teams can't negotiate with him, I guess OS has no claim to his playing rights.

Will he play for OS? I really doubt it now, but will he play in Spoke.? I really doubt that one too. If Spokane wins the arbitration.....LA will probably just rush Lewis into the ECHL anyway. So both OS & Spoke. will probably lose out in this pissing match. :dead:

OHLArenaGuide
08-13-2006, 05:07 PM
It appears from everything I could dig up that, OS had no right to be negotiating with (much less signing) Lewis since he never cleared waivers through the WHL.

The flaw in this argument - WHO is going to waive him if he's not on anyone's list? (and I have no reason to believe he was at the time of the OS signing or we wouldn't be having this discussion). If no WHL team has his rights, no one can waive him.


I can't find anywhere except message boards where anyone has said anything about OS having Branch's & the CHLs approval to hold the press conference.

Owen Sound Sun-Times:
"Normally Lewis would have been Western Hockey League property, but since he went through two drafts without being selected by one of those teams, Futa signed him June 1 and filed the paperwork with the OHL and consequently the CHL before a WHL club could sign him.

"While Futa is expecting an appeal by the WHL, he's been assured that all of his paperwork is in order and that Lewis will suit up for the Attack next season."

HAF
08-13-2006, 05:46 PM
[QUOTE=90-91

Will he play for OS? I really doubt it now, but will he play in Spoke.? I really doubt that one too. If Spokane wins the arbitration.....LA will probably just rush Lewis into the ECHL anyway. So both OS & Spoke. will probably lose out in this pissing match. :dead:[/QUOTE]
http://pics.forecaster.ca/nhl-player/5708.gif C
Trevor Lewis
Age: 19
Date of birth: January 8, 1987
Place of Birth: Salt Lake City, UT, USA
Country: USA
HT: 6-1 WT: 192
Shoots/Catches: R
NHL Seasons: 0-R
Drafted by Los Angeles in 2006 (1/17).

He cant play in the ECHL or AHL as an '87 born (19 yr old). Unless he plays in the show which is highly doubtful his only option is Major Junior.

OHLArenaGuide
08-13-2006, 05:58 PM
He cant play in the ECHL or AHL as an '87 born (19 yr old). Unless he plays in the show which is highly doubtful his only option is Major Junior.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought that rule only applied to major junior players. If Lewis hasn't played major junior yet he should be able to go ECHL/AHL if the Kings want him to.

HAF
08-13-2006, 06:27 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought that rule only applied to major junior players. If Lewis hasn't played major junior yet he should be able to go ECHL/AHL if the Kings want him to.
I'll have to check into that but I dont think so.

90-91
08-13-2006, 06:30 PM
The flaw in this argument - WHO is going to waive him if he's not on anyone's list? (and I have no reason to believe he was at the time of the OS signing or we wouldn't be having this discussion). If no WHL team has his rights, no one can waive him.



Owen Sound Sun-Times:
"Normally Lewis would have been Western Hockey League property, but since he went through two drafts without being selected by one of those teams, Futa signed him June 1 and filed the paperwork with the OHL and consequently the CHL before a WHL club could sign him.

"While Futa is expecting an appeal by the WHL, he's been assured that all of his paperwork is in order and that Lewis will suit up for the Attack next season."


Correct me if I'm wrong, but waiving players through the league means that every WHL team if waiving their right to list him???

90-91
08-13-2006, 06:31 PM
I'll have to check into that but I dont think so.

I'd heard the same thing....that players not drafted by a CHL team can play at the ECHL or AHL levels.

OHLArenaGuide
08-13-2006, 06:46 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but waiving players through the league means that every WHL team if waiving their right to list him???

The situation has never come up so there is no precedent for it, but "waivers" is not something a league can list a guy on. A team has to do it. If no team owned Lewis's rights, then how could he possibly be waived? And no team would ever give up their right to EVER sign any player, no matter which team, which level, which anything. Even if you pass on a guy on waivers once you'd probably still want the option of signing him again later if he improves or something, assuming no one else takes him.

I quite honestly can't see how the waiver argument makes sense. If every team in the WHL passed on the right to put him on their PPL (which happened), that to me is no different from clearing waivers - the result is a player who is a free agent.

The argument is whether or not Spokane had him on their list at the right time, not whether Owen Sound has the right to sign him in the first place.

OHLArenaGuide
08-13-2006, 06:47 PM
I'd heard the same thing....that players not drafted by a CHL team can play at the ECHL or AHL levels.

I know Euro-drafted players can. Nick Bergfors was supposed to play for us in St John's this year but only wound up playing pre-season and then caught on in the AHL at 18.

90-91
08-13-2006, 07:37 PM
The situation has never come up so there is no precedent for it, but "waivers" is not something a league can list a guy on. A team has to do it. If no team owned Lewis's rights, then how could he possibly be waived? And no team would ever give up their right to EVER sign any player, no matter which team, which level, which anything. Even if you pass on a guy on waivers once you'd probably still want the option of signing him again later if he improves or something, assuming no one else takes him.

I quite honestly can't see how the waiver argument makes sense. If every team in the WHL passed on the right to put him on their PPL (which happened), that to me is no different from clearing waivers - the result is a player who is a free agent.

The argument is whether or not Spokane had him on their list at the right time, not whether Owen Sound has the right to sign him in the first place.

Well one thing I can say about this discussion is that it is really showing me how much I really don't know about League rules! :confused:

I really hope that when a ruling is made about this that there will be some explanation......more likely they will just let it fade away.

I guess we'll know when camps open in a couple of weeks.

LifelongChiefsFan
08-13-2006, 09:05 PM
"While Futa is expecting an appeal by the WHL, he's been assured that all of his paperwork is in order and that Lewis will suit up for the Attack next season."

Futa may believe that, but it doesn't mean anything. I have seen reports here that Speltz and the Chiefs' management are sure he'll be in Spokane. Take it with a grain of salt.

OHLArenaGuide
08-13-2006, 09:10 PM
Futa may believe that, but it doesn't mean anything. I have seen reports here that Speltz and the Chiefs' management are sure he'll be in Spokane. Take it with a grain of salt.

If he has been "assured his paperwork is all in order", presumably that means by the league. Although at this point it wouldn't surprise me if no one anywhere knows anything concrete about this anymore.

Dwight Schrute
08-14-2006, 01:52 AM
when will a decision be anounced ?

Jimmypop316
08-14-2006, 04:41 AM
I'm assuming this week since training camp will be starting in a little over a week (how amazing is THAT!! its almost time.) Probably by the end of the week we will know how everything is.

Redwic
08-15-2006, 09:25 PM
Why is this even being debated within the CHL? The OHL/ Owen Sound was TOTALLY in the wrong here. They have NO legitimate arguments to make.

Not only did Owen Sound steal a player off another team's protected player list, but they also broke the CHL's rules by crossing into another league's territory to do so, and to begin with.

And trust me, if Spokane wouldn't have had him on their list, some other WHL team would have. So for anyone questioning if the player was on Spokane's list at that time, that is really a mute point, as well.

Owen Sound broke the rules. End of story. There's nothing to discuss. The OHL, like the WHL & QMJHL, must conform to the CHL rules & territories. All the CHL has to do is say, "You weren't allowed in that territory. You have no rights to that player. He is not joining your team. Period."

OHLArenaGuide
08-16-2006, 07:42 AM
Why is this even being debated within the CHL? The OHL/ Owen Sound was TOTALLY in the wrong here. They have NO legitimate arguments to make.

I think if you read the thread you'll find otherwise. The CHL may rule in Spokane's favour but Owen Sound has perfectly legitimate arguments to make which I'm not going to rehash one more time.


Not only did Owen Sound steal a player off another team's protected player list, but they also broke the CHL's rules by crossing into another league's territory to do so, and to begin with.

He wasn't on their list at the time.


And trust me, if Spokane wouldn't have had him on their list, some other WHL team would have. So for anyone questioning if the player was on Spokane's list at that time, that is really a mute point, as well.

Conjecture. And it's "moot point".


Owen Sound broke the rules.

Please quote the rules they broke.


End of story. There's nothing to discuss.

Nine pages of thread would suggest otherwise.


The OHL, like the WHL & QMJHL, must conform to the CHL rules & territories. All the CHL has to do is say, "You weren't allowed in that territory. You have no rights to that player. He is not joining your team."

Territorial rules do not apply to free agents (see:Chris Houle, Jhase Sniderman, Claude Giroux, Robin Big Snake and Marty Doyle for just five examples of players who switched leagues), and if Lewis was not on any team's protected list at the time the Attack signed him, he was a free agent.

If you want more explanation you could always actually read the thread.

neutral
08-16-2006, 07:59 AM
To OHLArenaGuide:

Thanks for the reply. Yours is one of the few grammatically correct, factual, and well constructed rebuttals to appear in a hockey chat-site in a long time. Several people have made excellent points, whether based on fact, fiction, emotion, or speculation. But your post was a nice summary. I should add, without any substantiated facts, I believe the player still falls within the WHL jurisdiction, but the hockey gods will make that decision.

OHLArenaGuide
08-16-2006, 08:07 AM
To OHLArenaGuide:

Thanks for the reply. Yours is one of the few grammatically correct, factual, and well constructed rebuttals to appear in a hockey chat-site in a long time. Several people have made excellent points, whether based on fact, fiction, emotion, or speculation. But your post was a nice summary. I should add, without any substantiated facts, I believe the player still falls within the WHL jurisdiction, but the hockey gods will make that decision.

Well, thanks.

I honestly have no idea where Lewis stands. Since the CHL, WHL and OHL don't actually publish their rule books, we really have no idea how they're going to rule. I think that if Lewis wasn't on any team's list when Owen Sound signed him then he should be fair game; that said, it seems from the sounds of things that he wasn't actually signed to a contract, just a player card, so who knows what'll happen?

The only thing that's for sure is that it's not a slam dunk one way or the other, and I think that the reason that it's taking so long is because the CHL knows this will probably set a precedent.

Kristi
08-16-2006, 08:39 AM
ITerritorial rules do not apply to free agents (see:Chris Houle, Jhase Sniderman, Claude Giroux, Robin Big Snake and Marty Doyle for just five examples of players who switched leagues), and if Lewis was not on any team's protected list at the time the Attack signed him, he was a free agent.



I will disagree with you on Robin BigSnake. He was released from Portland as an overager and had to clear waivers to play in the OHL. That was a totally different situation than this one.

OHLArenaGuide
08-16-2006, 08:45 AM
I will disagree with you on Robin BigSnake. He was released from Portland as an overager and had to clear waivers to play in the OHL. That was a totally different situation than this one.

It was the same with several of the other players I mentioned. It doesn't matter how a player becomes a free agent; only that they are one. If Lewis's rights were not owned by any WHL team, he therefore is a free agent. He couldn't be waived because no one had him signed to a contract that they could waive.

Redwic
08-16-2006, 10:11 AM
The CHL was designed so that there would be three independent leagues, with no intermingling. For instance, one league cannot draft a player who is from another league's territory. Also, one league cannot trade players between leagues. So why do you think that one league can take a so-called "free agent" from another league's territory? It wouldn't make sense.

If no team wants a certain player within their territory, or if a player doesn't want to join the CHL league assigned to that territory, then if that player wants to still play hockey he will have to find another route other than the CHL. That should be the rule of thumb.

Or how about this proposal: If a particular CHL league has no teams that place a certain player on a PPL, then other leagues can have a legitimate shot at the player under the "free agent" assumption. HOWEVER, there would FIRST have to be a LONG (designated) period of time in which the player's territorial league did not have any team with the player on their PPL, before any other CHL league would have a chance to acquire his rights. In other words, it gives leverage to the league in which the player is located in, territorially, and makes it so that another CHL league's team cannot just snatch up on another league's player the instant he is removed from a team's PPL.

Or how about this, even: If a team from another CHL league takes an available player from another league's territory, any team from the 'legitimate' league/territory still has the right to place the player on their PPL and remove him from the other CHL league's team's roster/PPL at any time.

The bottom-line is that the CHL needs to establish a precedent. They need to be able to have firm rules so that it discourages against any CHL league's team from intermingling in another CHL league's territory. I am not WHL-biased here, either; I would feel the exact same way if the situation were reversed & Spokane was considered the 'thief'.

Redwic
08-16-2006, 10:12 AM
... I went to your website, for the first time, this morning. You put a lot of effort and thought into it, and I really enjoyed it. :thumb:

OHLArenaGuide
08-16-2006, 11:22 AM
The CHL was designed so that there would be three independent leagues, with no intermingling. For instance, one league cannot draft a player who is from another league's territory. Also, one league cannot trade players between leagues. So why do you think that one league can take a so-called "free agent" from another league's territory? It wouldn't make sense.

Yet it happens every single season.
Check out the list of teams these players played for:
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php3?pid=76901
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php3?pid=42382
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php3?pid=62616
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php3?pid=74599
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php3?pid=52681


If no team wants a certain player within their territory, or if a player doesn't want to join the CHL league assigned to that territory, then if that player wants to still play hockey he will have to find another route other than the CHL. That should be the rule of thumb.

You're talking hypotheticals here, but at any rate, that's not fair. If a player isn't wanted in one league then who are we to tell that player "find another place to play outside the CHL"? There are 59 CHL teams, and if 58 don't want a player and one does, then the system allows the player to play for that team.


Or how about this proposal: If a particular CHL league has no teams that place a certain player on a PPL, then other leagues can have a legitimate shot at the player under the "free agent" assumption. HOWEVER, there would FIRST have to be a LONG (designated) period of time in which the player's territorial league did not have any team with the player on their PPL, before any other CHL league would have a chance to acquire his rights. In other words, it gives leverage to the league in which the player is located in, territorially, and makes it so that another CHL league's team cannot just snatch up on another league's player the instant he is removed from a team's PPL.

Again, you're talking hypotheticals, but there is a seven-day waiting period. And if we made it any longer it could be a long time - what if a team drops a player in the middle of the season? Is it fair to make him sit out a month or two?


Or how about this, even: If a team from another CHL league takes an available player from another league's territory, any team from the 'legitimate' league/territory still has the right to place the player on their PPL and remove him from the other CHL league's team's roster/PPL at any time.

I would have less of a problem with this, but it essentially is admitting that Team A got "scooped". Besides, the CHL is most concerned with getting talented players into the league and beating the NCAA, USHL, and other development programs. If a player works out a deal with Team B that hypothetically wouldn't have happened with Team A, then in the CHL's view, at least that's one more good player playing in the CHL.



The bottom-line is that the CHL needs to establish a precedent. They need to be able to have firm rules so that it discourages against any CHL league's team from intermingling in another CHL league's territory. I am not WHL-biased here, either; I would feel the exact same way if the situation were reversed & Spokane was considered the 'thief'.

I agree that they need to establish a precedent. However I am pretty convinced that territorial rules don't apply when you're talking about players not drafted, who have never played in a certain league, and are not on any PPLs.


... I went to your website, for the first time, this morning. You put a lot of effort and thought into it, and I really enjoyed it.

Thanks! :thumb:

Someday I'll get out west and start seeing WHL games.

Redwic
08-16-2006, 02:27 PM
Well-thought-out, and you back up your statements with examples. I really appreciate that, and it gives me more to consider regarding this issue.
Perhaps it is not as 'black & white' as I had originally figured.

Thanks.

OHLArenaGuide
08-16-2006, 02:38 PM
Well-thought-out, and you back up your statements with examples. I really appreciate that, and it gives me more to consider regarding this issue.
Perhaps it is not as 'black & white' as I had originally figured.

Thanks.

Well, I don't know what's going to happen any more than you. The only thing I know for sure is that if it was black and white, then the issue would already be long settled.

Jimmypop316
08-16-2006, 04:25 PM
If anything, the CHL needs to adopt that any player from those territories need to go through the waiver before they switch leagues. Get something in black and white, or some other rule that every league will abide by.

Number_4
08-16-2006, 05:57 PM
Ideally, the CHL and the rest of the leagues need to get together and come up with rules for situations like this, as well as any player transaction between leagues. While they are at it, the should also consider creating rules for drafts so that every league drafts the same, which could also help create equality amoung the leagues. I would love to see them do this, and especially deal with the 'protected player' lists, etc. The CHL refers to itself as an umbrella league, they should take the initative to create this equality. Each league can still operate on its own, but lets create some equality with regards to player drafts, transfers, and proctected player lists. Right now, it just gets too confusing when situations like this arise. Of course, this could be a once in a million situation, but I dont think anyone wants to push their luck and bet that it wont happen again.

Its not black and white this time. But one of my old art teachers was really fond of saying "black and white are just shades of grey." Didnt really know the truth of that saying until now. It will be quite interesting to see what come out of this, and if the CHL even considers changing or making a few new rules to cover everything.

AmsPhotos
08-16-2006, 06:39 PM
Wow...long read. I think it is (or will be when they clarify the rules) a territorial issue. I think regardless of whether a player is listed or drafted, he should still have to go through the waiver process. A team wanting to sign a player from outside their territory could initiate them through the waiver process and if they clear waivers then the league owning their rights reliquishes those rights and the outside team can sign them. Can be a very quick process, but a process that gives the home territory every chance to keep their player.

Talking about what happened in the 90s with maritime players jumping leagues is probably a moot point. The loopholes that allowed those jumps have probably been closed. The Q probably fought to maintain their territorial rights.

In my opinion, Lewis will play for OS this year. The CHL doesn't want to lose such a high profile prospect. Its unfortunate that his profile is going to afford him an exception that others would not get. I think there will be ramifications and loopholes closed as a result though.

Jimmypop316
08-17-2006, 05:05 AM
Heres an article posted in the spokesman review today (http://spokesmanreview.com/sports/story.asp?ID=145173)

WHL team hopes for news from CHL

Jeff Bunch
Staff writer
August 17, 2006

One decision down, one to go – maybe.

That's where things stand for the Spokane Chiefs just a week before the start of their training camp.

Spokane checked one thing off its to-do list Tuesday by hiring assistant coach Steve Pleau. Pleau is the son of St. Louis Blues senior vice president and general manager Larry Pleau and was most recently coach of the Peoria (Ill.) Rivermen of the American Hockey League.

Now the Chiefs hope to hear some news from the Canadian Hockey League on a matter which potentially could change the makeup of the team's offense.

The eligibility of National Hockey League first-round pick Trevor Lewis (17th overall, Los Angeles Kings) continues to be pursued by Western Hockey League officials, but it's unclear when or if a decision is forthcoming.

Lewis, a Utah product, hails from the WHL's defined territory. The Owen Sound of the Ontario Hockey League, however, signed the forward to a player tryout agreement at the NHL draft combine in early June.

The news of the signing wasn't announced until late July, and has caused an unprecedented situation among the CHL's three leagues: the WHL, the OHL and the Quebec Major Junior Hockey League. Each side in the dispute has polar opposite views of the matter.

On one side is the Owen Sound Attack and the player's agent, Wade Arnott. On the other side is the WHL and commissioner Ron Robison, on behalf of the Chiefs.

Both the Chiefs and the Attack opening training camp in a matter of days, but no action has been taken by the CHL regarding Lewis and no formal process exists for resolving the situation. The current president of the CHL is David Branch, who previously approved Lewis' Owen Sound contract in his capacity as OHL commissioner.

Branch did not return phone calls seeking comment. Arnott said he hasn't been notified that the CHL is going to further examine the matter. The WHL is mulling its options, if that's the case.

At the heart of the matter is a written regulation that defines territories for each league, and a set of unwritten customs and practices that all of the parties agree rely on principles of good faith. Each side claims they've played by both the letter and the spirit of the rules.

The WHL, in the person of Robison, is arguing that only two things matter: Lewis is in the WHL territory and he is a listed player of the Chiefs.

The other side, in the persons of Owen Sound general manager Michael Futa and Arnott, said there is no dispute. They said Lewis is a 19-year-old free agent, as he was eligible but undrafted for two years by WHL teams.

Futa said last week that he exercised "due diligence" in verifying that Lewis was not listed by any WHL team when he signed him and did not seek a release of rights for Lewis from the league.

===

Up and down, up and down. I bolded/italisized some very important parts of the article. I swear it felt like Lewis was 90% going to be a Chief earlier this week, but now back to I don't know.

What I really have to question is, that if the Chiefs were able to put him on their PPL, why wasn't it made public by Owen Sound that they had given him a try-out contract or however they went about doing it. Wouldn't that also mean they would have added him to some sort of PPL?

It was noted by The Scouting News that Lewis was listed by the Chiefs on the 12th of June. The Draft Combine took place during may 30th to June 3rd. Why weren't the Chiefs aware of the Agreement that the Owen Sound had made with Lewis? Wouldn't it had been more public if it was made. I don't understand how both teams could have gone about listing/adding this player to their team without knowing that he had been signed by the other.

This is a god damn mess (excuse my cursing) but it is absolutely ridiculus it has come to this. Lets get some set rule about this so it never happens again. There is no clear answer, and it looks like no end to this anytime soon, which means Lewis will be suiting up in an Owen Sound sweater with training camp coming around next week. I also think the argument about the whole "undrafted for two years" is a joke and should be tossed aside. I am yet to hear a case about a player going into the draft again, are they just thinking its like the OHL, because we don't exactly have a draft like they do. If a player passes through the bantam draft, he will be in his last year of play, and therefore be 16, and I have never seen a player be drafted, and then coming up to play the very next year. If a player goes undrafted he just goes to the free agency, and any team can sign him to a contract/add him to a PPL.

But then when they are 19+ they can be signed by any league, if they pass through the waiver. The whole problem is the question if that rule works players who haven't played in the dub. I find it hard to believe this is the first time this has happened.

Regardless, I hope Speltz, Brett, The Chiefs Organization, and the WHL raise hell about this situation because they have every right to, and more importantly so it doesn't ever happen again.

CrushKillDestroy
08-17-2006, 07:24 AM
Up until 2002, the WHL drafted Canadian-born players in the calendar year in which they turned 15. American-born players were drafted in the calendar year in which they turned 16.

Since the 2003 draft, all players are draft-eligible in the calendar year in which they turn 15.

Being passed over in the bantam draft has no bearing on Lewis' ability to be a so-called "free agent". This is an issue that will likely be decided on the grounds of territorial rights, and how a player is allowed (or not allowed) to play in another territory. It is about the appropriate steps that need to be undertaken in the process.

Redwic
08-17-2006, 08:09 AM
Both the Chiefs and the Attack opening training camp in a matter of days, but no action has been taken by the CHL regarding Lewis and no formal process exists for resolving the situation. The current president of the CHL is David Branch, who previously approved Lewis' Owen Sound contract in his capacity as OHL commissioner.

Branch did not return phone calls seeking comment. Arnott said he hasn't been notified that the CHL is going to further examine the matter. The WHL is mulling its options, if that's the case.

That part of the article might be very insightful. The new CHL president is the same guy who approved the original signing while heading the OHL. Does anyone think that he's going to takeback his own decision? Unfortunately, I do not. He would probably think of it either as a sign of weakness, or a sign that he doesn't fully understand the CHL's intent to keep the three leagues separate (thus questioning his stance as the CHL President). That, plus he has a lot of loyalty to the OHL, I would reckon.

Beaner
08-17-2006, 09:37 AM
that all of the parties agree rely on principles of good faith. Each side claims they've played by both the letter and the spirit of the rules.


Well thats the real problem right there. No hard and fast rules. Both sides can claim they played by the rules since there are none, therefore both sides claim they are right.



What I really have to question is, that if the Chiefs were able to put him on their PPL, why wasn't it made public by Owen Sound that they had given him a try-out contract or however they went about doing it. Wouldn't that also mean they would have added him to some sort of PPL?

It was noted by The Scouting News that Lewis was listed by the Chiefs on the 12th of June. The Draft Combine took place during may 30th to June 3rd. Why weren't the Chiefs aware of the Agreement that the Owen Sound had made with Lewis? Wouldn't it had been more public if it was made. I don't understand how both teams could have gone about listing/adding this player to their team without knowing that he had been signed by the other.

Well this is where it really becomes a mess. Based on what I have read from various messgae boards, I believe this is what happened, and why we never heard about this early signing to a card of Lewis.

Mind you I have nothing to back this up, but putting the pieces together over what happened and looking at the situation, I think this is why we never found out OS had him signed until after he signed with LA

- Lewis, well before the combine etc starts declares his intent to play College hockey, this year.
- Ron Hextall, a scout, talks to OS and Lewis, and lets them know that the Kings are intent on drafting Lewis in the first round AND they will sign him to a contract, therefore negating Lewis's NCAA eligibility.
- OS and Futa confirm this with Lewis, and LA, and sign him to a card, but, keep it in their back pocket. They tell no-one except David Branch and dont publish it. This is just in case Lewis doesnt get drafted by LA and signed. If Lewis doesn't get signed to a pro-contract after the draft, they can rip up the card and then Lewis can still go play college. Probably the compromise worked out between OS and Lewis.
- Spokane takes a chance Lewis may not go college, and put him on the 50ppl. on June 12th, not realizing that OS has put him on a card. Why should they, no one but OS and Branch know this.
- Draft happens LA gets Lewis, and signs him.
- OS announces they have Lewis's rights.
- Spokane cries foul and says we have him on a 50ppl, we have his rights.

It looks to me that this was all set-up so that if Lewis did not get signed to an NHL contract then he could still go to college. What really fouled it all up for all the parties was that Spokane put him on a 50ppl BEFORE OS officially announced his signing.

If OS had waited until after Lewis signed his pro-contract with LA to sign him to a card, every single team in the WHL would have been hustling to get him on their 50ppl as quick as possible. Since all a WHL team has to do to list a guy is send in a fax to the league OS went this route. If OS had announced they signed him to a card, in early June, that would have negated any NCAA eligibility right then and there.


This is a god damn mess (excuse my cursing) but it is absolutely ridiculus it has come to this. Lets get some set rule about this so it never happens again. There is no clear answer, and it looks like no end to this anytime soon, which means Lewis will be suiting up in an Owen Sound sweater with training camp coming around next week.

Couldn't agree more. Looks more and more like the CHL is just hoping this will go away. Hopefully the WHL and Spokane sticks to its guns on this.

And its time to get the rules written up all official like. No more gentlemans agreements, because when we are talking about 1st round draft picks, the gentlemans agreements will get chucked out the window.

OHLArenaGuide
08-17-2006, 11:50 AM
Well this is where it really becomes a mess. Based on what I have read from various messgae boards, I believe this is what happened, and why we never heard about this early signing to a card of Lewis.

Mind you I have nothing to back this up, but putting the pieces together over what happened and looking at the situation, I think this is why we never found out OS had him signed until after he signed with LA

- Lewis, well before the combine etc starts declares his intent to play College hockey, this year.
- Ron Hextall, a scout, talks to OS and Lewis, and lets them know that the Kings are intent on drafting Lewis in the first round AND they will sign him to a contract, therefore negating Lewis's NCAA eligibility.
- OS and Futa confirm this with Lewis, and LA, and sign him to a card, but, keep it in their back pocket. They tell no-one except David Branch and dont publish it. This is just in case Lewis doesnt get drafted by LA and signed. If Lewis doesn't get signed to a pro-contract after the draft, they can rip up the card and then Lewis can still go play college. Probably the compromise worked out between OS and Lewis.
- Spokane takes a chance Lewis may not go college, and put him on the 50ppl. on June 12th, not realizing that OS has put him on a card. Why should they, no one but OS and Branch know this.
- Draft happens LA gets Lewis, and signs him.
- OS announces they have Lewis's rights.
- Spokane cries foul and says we have him on a 50ppl, we have his rights.

It looks to me that this was all set-up so that if Lewis did not get signed to an NHL contract then he could still go to college. What really fouled it all up for all the parties was that Spokane put him on a 50ppl BEFORE OS officially announced his signing.

If OS had waited until after Lewis signed his pro-contract with LA to sign him to a card, every single team in the WHL would have been hustling to get him on their 50ppl as quick as possible. Since all a WHL team has to do to list a guy is send in a fax to the league OS went this route. If OS had announced they signed him to a card, in early June, that would have negated any NCAA eligibility right then and there.

As near as I can tell that's pretty close to what happened. Owen Sound agreed to protect Lewis's NCAA eligibility until after the draft and Spokane unwittingly screwed up OS, LA and Lewis's cunning plan.

Given that LA and Lewis both want him in Owen Sound I have a feeling that will be where he goes, but no one is expecting the Chiefs to go quietly into the night either.

Beaner
08-17-2006, 12:58 PM
As near as I can tell that's pretty close to what happened. Owen Sound agreed to protect Lewis's NCAA eligibility until after the draft and Spokane unwittingly screwed up OS, LA and Lewis's cunning plan.


The more I think about this, and how its played out, it looks like this is OS/Lewis trying to pull a fast one on the NCAA and not the CHL/WHL.

Spokane slapping him on their 50ppl list was just something neither Lewis or OS had thought would happen, and has thus thrown a huge wrench into their plans.

There is an article here, http://hockeysfuture.com/article.php?sid=8219, done back in January of '06 where Lewis makes it very clear that he is going to the NCAA.

And this one when he was first signed to OS, that states he was going to go NCAA, before being signed. http://hockeysfuture.com/article.php?sid=8970

rinkrat
08-17-2006, 06:46 PM
Well thats the real problem right there. No hard and fast rules. Both sides can claim they played by the rules since there are none, therefore both sides claim they are right.



Well this is where it really becomes a mess. Based on what I have read from various messgae boards, I believe this is what happened, and why we never heard about this early signing to a card of Lewis.

Mind you I have nothing to back this up, but putting the pieces together over what happened and looking at the situation, I think this is why we never found out OS had him signed until after he signed with LA

- Lewis, well before the combine etc starts declares his intent to play College hockey, this year.
- Ron Hextall, a scout, talks to OS and Lewis, and lets them know that the Kings are intent on drafting Lewis in the first round AND they will sign him to a contract, therefore negating Lewis's NCAA eligibility.
- OS and Futa confirm this with Lewis, and LA, and sign him to a card, but, keep it in their back pocket. They tell no-one except David Branch and dont publish it. This is just in case Lewis doesnt get drafted by LA and signed. If Lewis doesn't get signed to a pro-contract after the draft, they can rip up the card and then Lewis can still go play college. Probably the compromise worked out between OS and Lewis.
- Spokane takes a chance Lewis may not go college, and put him on the 50ppl. on June 12th, not realizing that OS has put him on a card. Why should they, no one but OS and Branch know this.
- Draft happens LA gets Lewis, and signs him.
- OS announces they have Lewis's rights.
- Spokane cries foul and says we have him on a 50ppl, we have his rights.

It looks to me that this was all set-up so that if Lewis did not get signed to an NHL contract then he could still go to college. What really fouled it all up for all the parties was that Spokane put him on a 50ppl BEFORE OS officially announced his signing.

If OS had waited until after Lewis signed his pro-contract with LA to sign him to a card, every single team in the WHL would have been hustling to get him on their 50ppl as quick as possible. Since all a WHL team has to do to list a guy is send in a fax to the league OS went this route. If OS had announced they signed him to a card, in early June, that would have negated any NCAA eligibility right then and there.



Couldn't agree more. Looks more and more like the CHL is just hoping this will go away. Hopefully the WHL and Spokane sticks to its guns on this.

And its time to get the rules written up all official like. No more gentlemans agreements, because when we are talking about 1st round draft picks, the gentlemans agreements will get chucked out the window.

Great summary,Beaner.Thank you!
Now it all makes sense,as far as the timelines etc.
Branch is the one that really looks silly here. :(

Beaner
08-24-2006, 08:10 AM
Anyone anywhere heard any update on this? With camps starting now, and I presume the Attacks camp starting soon as well, where is Trevor Lewis right now?

Guess the league is hoping we, the fans just forget about this.....

Kristi
08-24-2006, 02:43 PM
Owen Sound starts camp next Wednesday.

Trav
08-24-2006, 07:13 PM
is claiming that they signed him long time ago but told no one then that card should be torn up and voided. No team should be allowed to do that. I seriously dont care where this guy plays but all I can say is that the OHL should get their big noses out of WHL territory.

LifelongChiefsFan
08-25-2006, 12:54 AM
The fact that Chiefs camp has started and there has been no word on a resolution leads me to believe the CHL has/will rule in favor of OS.

nivek_wahs
08-25-2006, 01:24 AM
Bad news? I dunno, but Lewis has a player profile on the Owen Sound website:

http://www.attackhockey.com/player_viewV2.asp?id=183

chiefgongshow
08-25-2006, 11:40 AM
Bad news? I dunno, but Lewis has a player profile on the Owen Sound website:

http://www.attackhockey.com/player_viewV2.asp?id=183
Thats been up for sometime. On LA's rookie camp roster he is still listed as being on his USHL team for whatever that is worth.

Dwight Schrute
08-25-2006, 05:41 PM
when Will This All Be Settled !!!!

KIF
08-30-2006, 09:25 AM
He's 19 years old. Since has signed a contract with the LA Kings, there is no college eligibility for him. He's also too young for the AHL. I think the Kings would prefer him be in major juniors too.

This only applies if he was drafted from the CHL he could go to AHL f the Kings want him there.