Penalties/Reffing

[Tinner]

After Saturday nights games, the league as a whole, is averaging 56.6 minutes per team in penalties. Thats right....56.6 per team. That works out to 113 minutes in penalties per game.

When do we get to watch any 5 on 5 hockey? I'm not saying that the penalities aren't deserved, but I think the reffing is brutal. I went to the game Saturday night and there were at least 3-4 penalties per team that I didn't see as infractions. Sure the the clamp down on the rules is nice to see, but it seems to me, that as a fan, I pay my money to watch the players play and not the refs make fools of themselves. Anytime anyone leaves a hockey game and all they remember is the ref's names is bad for the game. The ref should not be the main attraction and yet, certain refs like to let everyone know that they are in charge.

The clamp down on minor infactions with the subsequent penalties has swung the pendulum to far. It didn't need to go from one extreme to the other, there needed to be some tweeks and balances, but by the way the games are being called now is ruining any flow and pure excitement that the teams can provide or generate.

Here's another thing, you go to the game, listen to the national anthem and the first thing the guy next to you says, "wanna bet on when the first penalty is called" or "the first penalty will be 23 seconds into the game" and in Red Deer last night....it came 6 seconds in. Ridiculous

[SectionNDeserter]

With the exception of the baffling call in overtime on Plante and Sutter, I thought the officiating was quite good, at least under the 'new' guidelines for obstruction interference. When the NHL abolished the Rover position from hockey in 1912, a lot of people were upset about that big change as well. But as you can all see the game did not suffer, and actually improved. I guess what I am saying is, give it some time for the players (and fans) to get used to it, I think it will make the game better in the end. :thumb:

[Scout]

I find with the two ref system they sometimes seem to want to out do each other. If one ref is calling alot of penalties then the other must feel he isn't earning his pay and he starts getting whistle happy. The most frustrating part for me is the flow of the game until the players and fans get used to these new rules. When Regina was here the other night it seemed The Bronco's would get called for a bunch of penalties in a row then it seemed to be Regina's turn and they would get nailed for a bunch in a row.

My biggest concern is it got to the point where the players were backing off from even checking the opposing player because they were getting called for charging. Now instead of having a bit of a physical game we are watching the forwards go around the D untouched as the D is scared of getting called for interferance and or hooking. I agree with Reb,if wanted to watch the refs all night i would go to reffing school. Your right SectionD it will take awhile to get used to but it is killing i feel the excitement of the game or i'm getting old. I like the old rockem sockem hockey with hard hits and aggresive hockey. It's very hard to get into when all there is is whistle blowing and a steady stream to the box, but thats just my opinion.

Scout

[Flathead]

I'm hoping that in a month or so the players have gotten used to it and the refs have gone more lenient. The way it is now is BRUTAL and will only drive fans away from the game. There is zero flow to the game. I thought that the way the game was played last year didn't have many problems and was some very exciting hockey, some minor changes in officiating were needed but this extreme is ridiculous. I found myself watching NHL pregame highlights saying to myself, "that would have been a penalty in the dub, oh, that there too..........." We're supposed to be following the NHL rules but they are way more lenient from what I've seen. But then again the most consistent thing about the WHL is inconsistent officiating. It's frustrating for fans and players.

[Beaner]

Sorry disagree with ya Reb.

The league has stated its zero tolerance. Until the players start to believe that, you will see these calls continue along like this until they do.

I dont want to ever see trap hockey again, and if this is what they have to do to stop it then, Im all for it.

Nothing worse IMHO then watching some guy latch on to a player with out the puck and ride him all over the ice.

[Flathead]

My biggest concern is it got to the point where the players were backing off from even checking the opposing player because they were getting called for charging. Now instead of having a bit of a physical game we are watching the forwards go around the D untouched as the D is scared of getting called for interferance and or hooking.

Scout
That was very apparent in the Swift/Regina game. There was times when there were no hits at all, just a bunch guys skating around doing some sort of one handed stick check thing??? :confused: I'm with ya Scout I too like the old school rock'em sock'em hockey, with hard hits and aggresive hockey and what I saw Friday night was just about the total opposite.

[scrunt]

I'm with Beaner on this one. I'm happy to live with a few months of special teams to get things on the right track. It took 20 years for the game to degrade to the style that it did, and it won't be corrected in a couple of weeks. Remember, thjese players have been playing this style for years, and old habits are hard to break.

It is a learning process for the refs too, and I was pleased to see in the Giants game last night that the hard hits and aggressive work along the boards were left alone, but the clutch-grab-pick-slash actions were the ones that were called.

No pain, no gain.

[Scout]

It's good that the Vancouver game the players got to throw hits. In the Swift/Regina game if you threw a hit you got called for charging or boarding so the players quit hitting. The worst part of the reffing was the parade to the box. It would be Swift three minors in a row and then it was Regina's turn. It was like we will pick on one team for awhile and then the next team. The outcome would have been the same. a Regina win but it was very hard to get any flow to the game. Even the fans lost interest as the noise level went to 0.

Scout

[Tipped Off]

I Think sometimes that is the hardest thing to remember. We're not talking about seasoned 15 year veteran referees here. We're talking about guys whose playing careers may have just ended a couple years ago. The league hired 12 new officials. These guys have reffed some lower levels the last few years, but the speed of this level is a jump up. We're preseason and a couple games in to a whole new way of officiating for guys who are learning themselves.

I like speed and skill Hockey. The flow is being hurt right now. But these same arguements were being stated in the NHL at the beginning of last season & it got much better in the 2nd half.

[Jimmypop316]

Give it december, refs will get more lenient and players will learn how to play the "new" game. Like I've said in the past you can't just instantly change how you've been taught to play in a month or two.

[d-man]

But then again the most consistent thing about the WHL is inconsistent officiating. It's frustrating for fans and players.

I don't mind "improvements" to the game but your right it has to be called consistently. In the Swift/Regina game almost anything physical was interference or charging. Except for the elbow Brady took to the head in the first - but then again none of the officials were watching him since he had the puck - too busy trying to find interference elsewhere on the ice.

[dondo]

It's good that the Vancouver game the players got to throw hits. In the Swift/Regina game if you threw a hit you got called for charging or boarding so the players quit hitting. The worst part of the reffing was the parade to the box. It would be Swift three minors in a row and then it was Regina's turn. It was like we will pick on one team for awhile and then the next team. The outcome would have been the same. a Regina win but it was very hard to get any flow to the game. Even the fans lost interest as the noise level went to 0.

Scout

^ that's what I am worried the most about, although the Vancouver game was consistent throughout and the team that made the most errors were given the most penalties -- no equalising penalties which I like. The clean hits were allowed the head high elbows and any highsticks in the vicinity of the shoulders were called as well.

As long as the physical element of the game does not disappear and the reffing is consistent throughout the game then I have no problem with the crack down, but as soon as clean hard physical play equals box-time then it is no longer calling the rules, but trying to control the game and that's wrong and not hockey. We had two good officals tonight as well - Herman and Nissen... I shudder to think what a Rehman/Zalaski combo would come up with :skeptical :eek:

I'm really hoping the players get it sooner rather than later because watching four on four, four on three, and five on three for 75% of the game gets very tiring after a while.

[Triton]

Give it december, refs will get more lenient and players will learn how to play the "new" game. Like I've said in the past you can't just instantly change how you've been taught to play in a month or two.


You know Tokarski is spelled wrong in your avatar?

[RunTheGoalie]

FWIW, there isnt a single team averaging 56 minutes per game. 56.6 is the per game total, not per team.

The reaction should not surprise anyone at all. The NHL went through this last year. This year is the CHL and CJAHL's turns. It will take time for everyone to adjust, including and especially the officials.

My biggest concern about the current state of officiating is just how much diving it encourages. Rebel fans may find the call on Sutter in OT last night to be frustrating given how the game went, I look at it and think that the referees decided they werent about to let Red Deer and Calgary get away with diving like they did in regulation.

[patsdude114]

I for 1 didnt think the reffing was that bad in Swift...there were some questionable calls at times but the refs r learning just as the players are....


As for the nexted night in Regina against the Blades the flow of the game was really good both taems could skate.... its all about body position something both teams did well on sat night...couldnt say the same for the Broncos on friday night, they just didnt have there feet under them and didnt want to skate like the Pats were doing.... the teams who are going to have success are the teams that can skate


and also the fact the Moir didnt perform to his normal against the Pats, he usually stands on his head against the Pats and i thought he was struggling alot, which didnt have nothing to do with the refs

[Sput]

One thing I have noticed both ion the two games here in PG and reading game recaps on almost all the boards. Diving is becoming very prevelant. Lots of calls being made on someone that is barely touched. The refs are going to have to watch for more of these dives, and start calling the unsportsman like conducts alone, and not the other call making it coincidental minors. If its a dive, call it and not the hook/trip/hold ect along with it. The we will see more consistant calls (hopefully) and the penalty parade will slow down.

[Beaner]

One thing I have noticed both ion the two games here in PG and reading game recaps on almost all the boards. Diving is becoming very prevelant. Lots of calls being made on someone that is barely touched. The refs are going to have to watch for more of these dives, and start calling the unsportsman like conducts alone, and not the other call making it coincidental minors. If its a dive, call it and not the hook/trip/hold ect along with it. The we will see more consistant calls (hopefully) and the penalty parade will slow down.

Agree about the diving and supposedly the NHL is going to take a serious look at it this year. Hopefully the WHL follows suit quickly.

Always drives me nuts when you see those diving and penalty on the same play. If its a hooking penalty how can it be a dive as well, and vice verasa?

And personally I think a dive should be a 2 min minor and a 10 min misconduct.

2 Dives in a game is a game misconduct and an automatic 1 game suspension.

And after 5 diving calls in a season any more results in a 1 game suspension and then escalates from there. 6th dive = 1 game, 7th dive = 2games and so on.

Make the punishment for diving so harsh that players wont dare to do it.

[chiefgongshow]

Agree about the diving and supposedly the NHL is going to take a serious look at it this year. Hopefully the WHL follows suit quickly.

Always drives me nuts when you see those diving and penalty on the same play. If its a hooking penalty how can it be a dive as well, and vice verasa?

And personally I think a dive should be a 2 min minor and a 10 min misconduct.

2 Dives in a game is a game misconduct and an automatic 1 game suspension.

And after 5 diving calls in a season any more results in a 1 game suspension and then escalates from there. 6th dive = 1 game, 7th dive = 2games and so on.

Make the punishment for diving so harsh that players wont dare to do it.
If the league wants to get rid of the diving they should not suspend for multiple offences, but fine players. Something like 50$ after 5 dives and raise it like $10-25$ for each dive after that. I like the 2 and 10 idea it would somewhat make players think before they drop. The league should have a process where teams can send in tapes and lists of players they think are diving for the league to review and ultimately make a list to send to league officials so they know who to keep an eye out for.

[Beaner]

You cant fine the players, they barely make enough money to buy lunch.

[LifelongChiefsFan]

You cant fine the players, they barely make enough money to buy lunch.

No they can't but they could fine the teams. I would imagine that any team wouldn't be too happy if they kept getting fines for one of their players diving and would get whoever it was to stop.

[Wildeyes]

Fines for diving are you kidding me, Whats next 10 bucks for every time they shoot the puck out the playing area.

They will crack down on the diving, The new hockey its all about body position and speed, I like it. I didnt think i would, i ref hockey as well but now i am enjoying it.

http://www.hockeycanada.ca/2/2/3/8/9/index1.shtml

Read this it should help a little bit

here is another one it comes from the SJHL but it also applies to the WHL

http://www.sjhl.ca/page.aspx?page_id=291

[Wildeyes]

they will help you fans so read it then look for it you will understand it

[dondo]

thx for that wildeyes it helps to clarify the language from a refs point of view -- so also stick on stick is not considered hooking? - 'cause there seem to be a whole lot of refs that seem to think it does in my experience.

It's also interesting to note the "triggers" or "danger zone" the refs looom for where any result of consequence demands a penalty -- which would explain to us why it appears that a player just had his stick at waist height and did not appear to slow or impeded but still got called in the stricter interpretation -- as a ref yourself how easy is it to see the very minor distinction between when a trigger adversely affects the play, and when it does not? I'd be curious to know.

[neutral]

Fines for diving are you kidding me, Whats next 10 bucks for every time they shoot the puck out the playing area.

They will crack down on the diving, The new hockey its all about body position and speed, I like it. I didnt think i would, i ref hockey as well but now i am enjoying it.

http://www.hockeycanada.ca/2/2/3/8/9/index1.shtml

Read this it should help a little bit

here is another one it comes from the SJHL but it also applies to the WHL

http://www.sjhl.ca/page.aspx?page_id=291


Thanks for the link!! I am also a fan of the new rules, but 3 of my primary concerns are addressed in the article you referenced. During the 4 games I have attended, the referees have misinterpreted the rules.

Concern # 1 - phantom calls (they are happening and frustrating to the players)
TRIPPING - Hockey is a game of speed and balance in which players frequently go down following incidental contact. Officials must see the foul and not guess in order to make the proper call. In cases where the official has not seen the infraction but has seen only the end result, officials must be aware that a possible ``missed infraction`` is justifiable whereas a ``phantom call`` is unacceptable.


Concern # 2 - defensive players are not the only ones causing interference (it seems like when offensive and defensive players bump while pursuing the puck, it is automatically assumed to be a penalty to the defensive player, or occasionally to the player who remains standing after the bump)
INTERFERENCE - The non-puck-carrier must be allowed to pursue the puck or to gain his position without being restrained or impeded in any manner.

Concern # 3 - the stronger or bigger players are being penalized for winning the battles for the puck (this is happening)
INTERFERENCE - Battles: Players are allowed to battle for body position using their strength and balance. These battles occur primarily along the boards and in front of the net. Officials must not penalize players for using assets of strength and balance.