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Thread: 16 -17 Season Discussion

  1. #1
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    Default 16 -17 Season Discussion

    It has been a while since anyone posted anything here, so I figured I would get the ball rolling!

    The season has started much like expected, with a lot of key players moving on to pro hockey, and many starting out the season in NHL training camps. A great effort from a number of players in the first two games, despite coming up with two out of four points. Will be interesting to see who stays, and who plays where, now that essentially the top two lines are returning from NHL camps.

    As expected, one of the overage goaltenders was moved. Both had almost identical numbers last season, and Sutter got a great return for Toth, picking up a valuable pick to help rebuild.

    I was really not looking forward to watching Rattie being a step behind the play all season, and taking piles of dumb penalties every night. I think he was brought in to add a little muscle to the lineup, but he never really did ever get his game together, for whatever reason. Great move basically flipping a 5th for a 6th round pick, to upgrade on Rattie, with a very hard-working, smart hockey player like Roy.

    I think the biggest surprise through training camp and the exhibition season has easily been Riley Lamb. It wasn't even a contest between him and Weatherill in training camp and exhibition. Trading Weatherill for Verhelst and moving up in the draft makes me think that there is a chance that they have gotten word that we may see the return of an overage player from the NHL that they didn't expect back, like Nogier perhaps?

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    Sutter obviously has a lot of faith in Riley Lamb and he has done well. That's pretty much the reason they could move Dawson Weatherill. I hope Nogier is coming back because that would be a huge boost to our young defensive core. If Nogier comes back, Trevor Martin or Colton Bobyk surely will be gone as well. I don't know what type of goaltender Verhelst is but he seems to have decent stats. He might just get traded to another team if Sutter wants to keep Martin. If Nogier comes back, I'm hoping Bobyk gets traded. That's just my opinion. I don't think he has anything to offer to the young kids.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BDKrebel View Post
    Sutter obviously has a lot of faith in Riley Lamb and he has done well. That's pretty much the reason they could move Dawson Weatherill.
    I was telling someone a while back, that I really hoped they would hold on to Lamb, but that it put the team in a tough spot, because it would be hard to go with Lamb and Weatherill from the get go, and that if they reassigned Weatherill, that he would likely not be back. I am glad that they found Weatherill a place to get a fresh start.


    I hope Nogier is coming back because that would be a huge boost to our young defensive core. If Nogier comes back, Trevor Martin or Colton Bobyk surely will be gone as well.
    The addition of Verhelst seems to point towards Martin being on his way out.

    If Nogier comes back, I'm hoping Bobyk gets traded. That's just my opinion. I don't think he has anything to offer to the young kids.
    He doesn't really have any more or less to offer them than anyone else on the team. He had 20 goals last season from the blueline (playing in a system that has the outward appearance of discouraging defensemen from one-timing the puck). Last Rebel blueliner to score 20 or more goals, was Matt Dumba. Before that? Dion Phaneuf... Bobyk is terrifying to watch in his own end of the ice at times, but not too many 20 goal defensemen roll through Red Deer these days...

    Unless the Rebels are absolutely tearing it up in the standings by the time the trade deadline rolls around, Bobyk, and any potential players returned by NHL teams will likely be moved for future assets.

    My biggest fear is that the Blues send Bleackley back, and the team decides to hold on to him...

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    I played senior hockey with Dawsonís Dad and he is a really good kid. Iím happy he is getting a fresh start as well and wish him all the best.

    With the addition of Verhelst you are probably right that Martin is on his way out. He has similar numbers but he is a year younger. My buddy who has season tickets with me figures they may trade him for a 20 year old defenseman. That would all depend on if we get Nogier back.

    Your right in the fact that 20 goal scoring defensemen are hard to come by but he had a pretty good group of forwards in front of him. You can probably cut Bobykís goal scoring production in half this year. We just donít have anywhere near the same offensive team and we are much younger due to the Memorial Cup. As for Bobyk being really bad in his own end, he is actually terrible from the offensive blue line back. The only thing that I can see that he contributes to the team is that he has a hard shot. Thatís just my opinion.

    As for Bleakley being sent back by the Blues. I work with one of the Billets and asked that very question and he said no. You seem to be pretty knowledgeable around the rink so you may have information that I donít know about.

    I really think the Rebels are going to be fighting for the 7th or 8th playoff spot this year but maybe theyíll surprise us. Iím really looking forward to the rest of the season as they get some of their vets back from the camps. I really enjoy watching the Rebels and after all is said and done they are just kids. They are trying their best.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BDKrebel View Post
    I played senior hockey with Dawsonís Dad and he is a really good kid. Iím happy he is getting a fresh start as well and wish him all the best.
    I work with his Mom, and the few times I talked to her at training camps, she was obviously pulling for him, but didn't seem to be heaping a lot of unrealistic expectations upon him, which is always a good thing for these young guys.

    With the addition of Verhelst you are probably right that Martin is on his way out. He has similar numbers but he is a year younger. My buddy who has season tickets with me figures they may trade him for a 20 year old defenseman.
    Seems like there is going to be a good number of overage goaltenders out there for the taking, so I would be pretty impressed if someone would trade for him. An experienced overage defenseman would be pretty big for the team. They have enough talent from last year's team to put together two pretty decent forward lines, but with a hard-working, but sub-WHL caliber defenseman in Schomoorkoff, three 17 year old rookies, and a and a 16 year old rookie on the blueline, another overage defenseman would help a great deal with their possession game, as I can see that being an issue until some of the young blueliners get some more experience.

    Your right in the fact that 20 goal scoring defensemen are hard to come by but he had a pretty good group of forwards in front of him. You can probably cut Bobykís goal scoring production in half this year.
    The forwards didn't really have as much to do with his goals last season, as the fact that he is one of the few Rebel defensemen in the last decade that will one-time the puck, instead of stopping it, allowing the defender and goalie to get into position, then blasting it into the screen. Where his numbers will suffer vs. last season will be in the defensive columns.

    As for Bleakley being sent back by the Blues. I work with one of the Billets and asked that very question and he said no. You seem to be pretty knowledgeable around the rink so you may have information that I donít know about.
    The only real information that I have, is that Bleackley's trademark is showing up for training camp in poor shape, and doing nothing in the first half of the season every year. I heard that Nogier didn't have as good of a training camp with the Jets as he would have hoped, and Bleackely's reputation just has him always in the conversation about not making the cut somewhere.

    I really think the Rebels are going to be fighting for the 7th or 8th playoff spot this year but maybe theyíll surprise us.
    I think that with the pieces they have, if they replace one of the 17 year olds with an experienced overage defenseman, and find a place for Schmoorkoff to play, they could end up in the middle of the pack in the east. However, an overage defenseman that might have that sort of impact, isn't going to be a straight across deal for an overage goaltender with 59 regular season WHL contests under his belt. Sutter may be hesitant to give up any more future at this time for a defenseman like this, so the return of a guy like Nogier would be enormous to this team. Otherwise, I can see them pretty much just coasting along with pretty much what they have, and if they are not in a playoff position at the trade deadline, move some of their assets like Musil and Bobyk for some more picks and prospects.

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    Wholly, what is the record for most trades made by a team in a single season. Sutter must be on pace to shatter the record. If he is going to continue to trade for bottom pairing defensemen and 3rd and 4th line forwards he might as well send all his young guys down so they actually get some playing time. For a guy who continuously talks about the great prospects the Rebels have in the system, he certainly doesnt give them a chance to develop.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moonergroupie View Post
    Wholly, what is the record for most trades made by a team in a single season. Sutter must be on pace to shatter the record.
    Toth and/or Martin being traded or released was a necessary thing, as nobody thought that the team was going to carry two overage goaltenders.

    If you subtract Mahura and Hagel from the '98s, (as they won't play here as overage players), the pre-trades roster looked pretty grim in that age group, Sutter clearly made all these deals to "shuffle the deck" so to speak, and increase the number of 18 year olds on the roster in general.

    In addition to this, half of their blueline has been comprised of rookies up until this point, and that is really taking away from their time of possession. Adding Freadrich should help in this area.

    While it is a lot of trades, it isn't unheard of after a team loads up their team the season prior to that, with older players that won't return the next season.

    If he is going to continue to trade for bottom pairing defensemen and 3rd and 4th line forwards he might as well send all his young guys down so they actually get some playing time.
    Since you clearly haven't watched any games yet this season, I'll let you in on a secret! ELEVEN rookies have played three to five of the first five games. Any GM in this league that plans to move forward with more than half of his lineup comprised of rookie players, really doesn't have the best interest of his team in mind moving forward, as it will be nearly impossible for that team to develop any sort of a winning attitude, when they are getting bombed every game.

    These aren't NHL players, where the bulk of their development has already taken place, and they have been pigeonholed into a role already. These "Third and fourth liners" and "Bottom pairing defensemen" that they have added still have three full seasons of eligibility in the league, and could easily become key players in the next few seasons.

    For a guy who continuously talks about the great prospects the Rebels have in the system, he certainly doesnt give them a chance to develop.
    I have never really heard Brent Sutter talk about all the great prospects that the Rebels have in their system, but I have certainly heard Shaun Sutter talk at great lengths about some of them.

    That being said, they aren't trying to trick you, they say those things in order to instill hope in their fans, and confidence and a sense of competition in their prospects. If you look around the league, you will find that most (if not all) teams in general do this. If every team in the league gave a regular shift to players whom they pumped the tires of, the 23 man roster would have to grow to about 50 or 60, and teams would have to roll ten lines and five defensive pairings.

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    Well any notion of getting Nogier back is done and gone. He was reassigned to Manitoba of AHL on September 30. I wonder if Sutter is going to go after an overage defenseman. Now that he traded for Jared Freadrich Iím not sure. He sounds like more of an offensive defenseman but it might turn out okay for us. We could possibly have him for up to 3 years. We need another guy like Kayle Doetzel in the back end. He was rock solid. It would great to pick up another defenseman like we did in the 2014/15 season when Sutter added Brett Cote to the lineup. There are far too many rookies in the lineup. We need some more experienced veterans so I donít think Brent is done yet.

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    Not much point in having the bantam draft if you aren't going to allow any rookies on the team. They all have to start as rookies at some point. I was at the first game and the reason for the 10 or 11 rookies in the line-up was the fact that 5 regulars were still at Nhl camps. Not like this team is completely made up of rookies. While these players that Sutter has traded for still may develop into something in the next two or three years, you still have to remember that they were obviously far enough down on the depth charts that their previous teams didn't see them fitting into their futures as it isn't like a top prospect or high pick was traded for them.
    I still see no problem in having some higher end rookies play on the fourth line and gain some experience. The fourth line only plays 5 minutes a game anyway unless they are way up or way down.

    To bad as a player like Nogier is kind of what they need on the back end. This team isn't going to challenge to win it all this year so I have a hard time believing Sutter will give up the assets to try to acquire a top end guy. Unless one of the Rebels vets wants out, which with the way it sounded like they played the last two games, might be a possibility.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moonergroupie View Post
    Not much point in having the bantam draft if you aren't going to allow any rookies on the team.
    Lamb, Jerome, Cutler, Q. Martin, Bains, Alexeyev, Sakowich, Sass and probably Herauf. Nine rookies that for now are all on the roster, and are taking regular shifts. They are down to 24 skaters now, so realistically at least one or two of them is going home. If they reduce to 7, that is still a THIRD of the entire roster that is made up of rookies. It is really hard to tell if you are being serious or not, since you don't really seem to be making any effort to back up anything you are saying with any real numbers.

    Not like this team is completely made up of rookies.
    It isn't completely made up of rookies, currently just 40% rookies, and probably one of the least experienced teams in the league in terms of man games.

    While these players that Sutter has traded for still may develop into something in the next two or three years, you still have to remember that they were obviously far enough down on the depth charts that their previous teams didn't see them fitting into their futures as it isn't like a top prospect or high pick was traded for them.
    What is the benchmark for you? Do they have to all become 50 goal scorers in order to be deemed a successful WHL player? What if they just become a solid two-way player by the time they graduate from the WHL? You don't really know what they are capable of, until you try though right? Remember Rhyse Dieno?

    I still see no problem in having some higher end rookies play on the fourth line and gain some experience.
    Parts of the Third and Fourth line ARE higher end rookies (Jerome, Cutler, Bains, Q. Martin). You should take in some games, you might actually gain some perspective on what you are talking about.

    To bad as a player like Nogier is kind of what they need on the back end.
    If it happened, he would almost certainly only stick around until the trade deadline. A solid two-way defenseman with playoff experience and two Memorial cups worth of experience would probably fetch a pretty decent return.

    This team isn't going to challenge to win it all this year so I have a hard time believing Sutter will give up the assets to try to acquire a top end guy.
    It does seem unlikely, especially after the acquisition of Freadrich. Also he doesn't really have a lot of excess assets to give up.

    Unless one of the Rebels vets wants out, which with the way it sounded like they played the last two games, might be a possibility.
    Most of the Rebel vets returned from grueling NHL camps, just in time to hook up with the team to play THREE GAMES IN THREE NIGHTS on the road--fatigue was definitely a factor, especially this early in the season. Depending on where the Rebels are at around the trade deadline, I could see guys like Spacek, Musil and Bobyk moved for future assets.

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