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Thread: Off-Season Thread

  1. #101

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    I think we all saw this possibility coming but many of the dub media is on holidays. They won't interrupt a vacation from following junior hockey just to follow more junior hockey.

    Let's say he comes back. Wagner could be a big addition...and definitely a player who saves us assets when stocking up. For that reason alone, he would be a big get.

    But he could also be playing catch up for a long time with the rest of the players who will be in mid-season form...and if he isn't an improvement from last year, or is on and off injury list, that's one 20 spot burned (with another in net). I would want him back but only if he could be relied on. And only if he wants it. If he has pro primarily on his mind, then we need to move on or even trade him.

    Perhaps it's a good thing wagner and henry (I hope there aren't more) are out for nearly half the season. Some of the depth will get to try out bigger roles on a serious team. An extended camp, if you will, not just for the right to play on a whl club, but on the team that is supposed to emerge post deadline as THE team to beat.

  2. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by Some_Arrogant_Jerk View Post
    I think we all saw this possibility coming but many of the dub media is on holidays. They won't interrupt a vacation from following junior hockey just to follow more junior hockey.

    Let's say he comes back. Wagner could be a big addition...and definitely a player who saves us assets when stocking up. For that reason alone, he would be a big get.

    But he could also be playing catch up for a long time with the rest of the players who will be in mid-season form
    In what respect other than timing would he be catching up on? He's the fastest skater in the league, has good cardio and is already doing lower body workouts. The only thing that would take catching up on is his in-game timing, but since he would be returning on approximately 07-December-2017, there's plenty of time to "catch up" before playoffs.

    ...and if he isn't an improvement from last year, or is on and off injury list, that's one 20 spot burned (with another in net).
    The improvement part isn't something I am too worried about because if he reports in December and stays healthy, he'll be just as good, if not better than last year by the end of the season. That's not a concern at all. My only concern would be him re-injuring his shoulder. Nick Henry is in the same boat. Hopefully once both players' shoulders are 100%, they stay that way. Injuries happen and the Pats made the mistake last year of not having enough depth to account for injuries. Paddock should expect there to be a couple / few injuries at any / all times and make sure that the team has more than enough depth to handle injuries and illnesses.


    I would want him back but only if he could be relied on. And only if he wants it. If he has pro primarily on his mind, then we need to move on or even trade him.
    This is not a concern of mine either. As he stated in the article, he will play wherever L.A. sends him. I believe he wants to play pro and will play his best regardless of what uniform(s) he puts on next season. I believe that he is taking his hockey career seriously and will play his best if he is sent back to the Pats.

    Perhaps it's a good thing wagner and henry (I hope there aren't more) are out for nearly half the season. Some of the depth will get to try out bigger roles on a serious team. An extended camp, if you will, not just for the right to play on a whl club, but on the team that is supposed to emerge post deadline as THE team to beat.
    It's never a good thing to have two of your best players injured, but there is definitely a silver lining to the injuries in that they create opportunities for other players to develop.

    As for the 20 year old situation, it is my understanding that the 20 year old cut down deadline is in October, 2017, but the trade deadline is January 10th, 2018. If a 20 year old sustains a season ending injury before the trade deadline would the Pats be able to trade for another one? If that is the case, it would give Wagner a month to play with the Pats before the trade deadline to see how his shoulder holds up, assuming that L.A. sends him back. But I'm also wondering because this would apply to the other 20 year old's too if one of them gets seriously injured before the trade deadline.
    Last edited by Reider; 07-15-2017 at 11:17 PM.

  3. #103

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    I'm already anticipating the narrative that, come December, when henry (along with wagner if he is in the equation) returns to play, the injury addition(s) along with deadline work, will take a team that will probably be floundering relative to expectations...into a contender almost overnight. A night and day difference of a team. The impression may be 'why spend?', since having injured players return for free is like acquiring a new player, except they're already acclimated to our systems. I maintain that urge should be ignored. Take nothing for granted. This is the culmination of our only semi successful rebuilding cycle in many years; and it has taken five years of work. The brass should take it seriously and not even think about wagner until it is a legitimate possibility. Dont expect him, or even Henry. At this point, we have our centers likely covered, even insurance for injuries(although sloboshan should be moved barring a breakout). Our wings are bare, and our D may need a #2 guy if none of the Bruce or Smart assume a top 4 spot.

    I've looked through some teams and their projections.

    The one i like the most is a trade with Kelowna. It is very possible they're mediocre compared to the top teams. A young team, no goaltending. Not much competition in BC, but they should be focused on two years from now. Lockner may be our big piece, and he is close with the younger Foote brother. Kole lind is (almost) a local boy. This is a potential fit. Moving Lockner, a first, and a prospect for only Lind is underwhelming, especially depthwise, but if they include Dube(a decent wagner replacement) as well, it may only require a nudge of incentive more to do it. Nonetheless, credible talks could take place.

    Maybe things change if Lucas Johansen returns. He could replace Dube, and sloboshan would then have a home.

    Alternately, if that's a non starter, I could see something work around Victoria and Outhouse. They won't be world beaters neither. Move brown for a pick somewhere in west, ask for Outhouse(And a throw in 19) and move that 1st, maybe Cole Muir, and a roster player like Pierce + the brown pick. We upgrade our net with an underrated player, free up a spot for a 20 year old skater(thereby increasing our depth) and making a young roster player expendable(aka an added trade asset).

    I don't know if this is possible but it can't be comfortable having a 20 in net in a mem cup season.

    I'd like to see some depth moves. Buziak, DeWitt, and/or Sloboshan can be upgraded. I think smart can produce but until he does I'd consider other options. And of course in net.

  4. #104

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    Lind would be a great guy to acquire.....I couldn't feel more strongly against the Outhouse trade. Paddock has proven that he will stick with Brown, I definitely wouldn't trade a bunch of future for a marginal upgrade in goal. I realize it clears a 20 spot, but you could use those same assets to acquire a really good 19 year old.

    I definitely don't think the Pats will be "floundering in terms of expectations." I for one, don't think the Pats will be as strong as last year. Last year they ran away with the East.....you can't possibly expect that again. However, I do expect they will be in the top 3 in the east. Perhaps they make some more deals to really bolster things going into the season. I agree they could use a top 4 dman and another strong forward, but I wouldn't overpay right now.

  5. #105

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    It's nice to see a little chatter on the board and some good points made by all. I tend to agree that we have to build as if we won't be getting any help, and that could be the case particularly when is come to Wagner. L.A. will ultimately decide where he goes after rehab and it may not be the Pats. We know for sure that Henry will be back at some point so it would seem Wagner and Jost?? are the only wildcards at this point.

    IMO it would be very surprising to see Jost here at any time this season. Obviously it's not impossible but one would have to think highly unlikely. That first round pick designated for him will more than likely be spent on another asset(s) once the door officially closes.

    I think the Pats want to be highly competitive this season in that they told the CHL they would be. The CHL owns the Mastercard Memorial Cup and will have a vested interest in how the Pats are doing. If Paddock is to be believed he stated he wanted to be older and deeper this season. What that really means in practical terms is a good question. He has two older wingers coming in (King and Oksanen both 19) coming in. The question that is to be answered is whether or not either can actually contribute. Maybe King is united with Steel and he finds his touch in the Dub as he did in the MJHL. Oksanen is supposed to have been a high end prospect that got somewhat de-railed and they think a change might re-ignite him.

    Paddock is really committed to Brown in net so I think he's pretty safe. He would need to soil the sheets and play himself off the team to make Paddock do something in net IMO. We still need a couple good veteran wingers and at least on D-man. I truly believe that Smart could be moved with something else for an older quality d-man. Our top four d-man group has to be better. That 1st round pick allocated to Jost could be supplemented to obtain a couple of very good wingers.

    As stated we know Henry will be back for the second half and we want that to enhance our depth, not create it. If and only if Wagner were to return that would present Paddock with a big gift he doesn't have to pay for. However that is something he has be view as a non starter and build accordingly. This Pats battle plan likely looks like a maze at this point and may for a while. Based on past history this team will look significantly different come Jam 11th.

  6. #106

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    I agree that the Pats need to move forward without expecting any of their overage players, their injured players, or Jost. But the Pats should have a good idea on all of those players before the trade deadline, so it's nothing to worry about.

    As for Tyler Brown, I disagree. I don't think he would get traded for soiling the sheets in the first half of the season. He was weak in the first half of last season and Paddock still stood by him 100%. Also, if you add on the fact that he has a lot of playoff experience and he played good enough to take the Pats to game 7 of the WHL finals (they were a missed open net back hand away), I think Paddock is genuine about his support of the 20 year old product out of Winnipeg. The only ways I see him getting traded or not playing post-trade deadline is if he has a season ending injury / illness or Paddock decides that he wants 3 overage skaters.

    I find it interesting that the Pats drafted a 17 year old import defenseman in a Memorial Cup season, but we'll just have to see how his transition to the WHL goes. He's supposed to be a really good defenseman.

    I was thinking about what the lines would look like to start the season, but with all of the injuries and unknowns, I have a feeling that there's going to be a lot of experimentation with the lines this season. It wouldn't surprise me if King or Oksanen were given opportunities on the first two lines to see how their chemistry is with Steel and Bradley. It's my belief that the Pats need 6 high end wingers (Wagner, Henry, King and Oksanen etc.. will all have the opportunity to earn 4 of these spots) and 3 top 4 caliber defensemen (current Pats will have an opportunity to earn one or more of these spots as well).

    Even if all 4 of those forwards earn those spots and Dawson Davidson or Schioler earn a top 4 D spot, they're still going to need more high end players. I agree with Kole Lind and Dillon Dube being possible trade acquisition candidates. If the Pats can't get Tyson Jost to report, Kieffer Bellows on Portland would be a good player to keep an eye on. Portland may have a strong team of their own next year, so he may not be available, but he's still a player that the Pats may want to keep on their radar. Of course there's Jake Bean out of Calgary and Kale Clague on the Wheat Kings, who should both be 19 year old World Junior returnee's. Is there any chance the Pats could send de Wit and change back to Red Deer for Lane Zablocki? I know that's not likely and this is more of a rhetorical question than anything, but Zablocki played great in the playoffs @ 1.33 PPG last year, played good in the playoffs 2 years ago, will be 19 this year and Red Deer may not be a contending team next year. Even if he wasn't a former Pat, I'd still suggest that he's a player to watch out for. I still can't believe the Pats traded him away. Kailer Yamamoto, Tyler Steenbergen, Mathew Philips, Morgan Geekie, Skyler McKenzie, Brandon Hagel, Davis Koch, Nolan Patrick, Vince Loschiavo, Cal Foote, Dylan Coghlan, Cale Fleury, David Quenneville, Sahvan Khaira etc.. are other 19 year old players to keep an eye on next year even though some are under-sized, on contending teams or may play in the NHL. Cale Makar is another player I would like the Pats to acquire, but Medicine Hat owns his rights and he is committed to playing college hockey next year.
    Last edited by Reider; 07-22-2017 at 11:37 PM.

  7. #107

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    Any idea where assets would come from to acquire all these high end players your dreaming about? Teams won't just hand over quality players. Think about this, Broncos could look to make a run also Warriors have much more to move and will most likely be looking to contend. Pats won't be the only team in the division looking to add players and prices will not be cheap to do do. Moise jaw would be the favourite in the east IMO and it's about time they take a run for there fans they deserve it. If not right now then when?

  8. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oscar View Post
    Any idea where assets would come from to acquire all these high end players your dreaming about? Teams won't just hand over quality players. Think about this, Broncos could look to make a run also Warriors have much more to move and will most likely be looking to contend. Pats won't be the only team in the division looking to add players and prices will not be cheap to do do. Moise jaw would be the favourite in the east IMO and it's about time they take a run for there fans they deserve it. If not right now then when?
    You make a lot of great points Oscar and I agree with all of them. Moose Jaw and Swift Current will be strong again and it would be a great year for Moose Jaw to load up and make a serious run. Many Pats fans, including myself, felt that last year was the year for Regina to load up, while the Pats had a lot of talent. This year isn't ideal considering the team lost most of their high impact players. I don't know where the Pats will come up with the resources and that is my concern. I'm not sure that the Pats have enough resources left to put a Memorial Cup Championship team together this year. I'm not even certain that they have enough resources to put a WHL Championship caliber team together this year. There's a lot of work to be done and hopefully the work gets done and a lot of things go right.

    The truth is, the Pats will have to and have already started looking everywhere for players. So far they went out and acquired:

    Yegor Zamula (Age 17 - Defense - Import Draft)
    Emil Oksanen (Age 19 - Forward - Import Draft)
    Rayman Bassi (Age 17 - Forward - BC Major Midget Hockey League)
    Mackenzie Belinski (Age 17 Forward - Manitoba Midget Hockey League)
    George King (Age 19 - Forward - MJHL)
    Koby Morrisseau (Age 17 - Center - Spokane Chiefs)

    It's too early to tell if any of these players can be high impact players in the WHL next year, but George King and Emil Oksanen both have potential.

    The Pats also have the rights to Tyson Jost. If he doesn't report, they will have a first round draft pick they can use. The Pats may get lucky and get Austin Wagner back. Outside of that, I'm not sure what the Pats have that they can use for high end talent. Perhaps they could do some "hockey trades," but other teams will definitely want first round draft picks for their impact players. I'm not sure how far into the future the Pats can or are willing to use / trade away their first round draft picks.

  9. #109

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    I think they keep DeWit. He has more experience in the playoffs than some entire teams combined. Also valuable memorial cup experience. This year, itll be even more. I think he will make some strong improvements this year.

    At the very very least, i think...they need 2 more high end forwards, and a high end D. If jost doesn't report, there's another first to play with. Maybe one of the younger guys emerges into a serious contributer? Or wagner joins in? And even if Davidson or Smart exceed what we expect, we will need an all around veteran. A player in the mould of Zborovsky. Schioler can anchor a pairing but we need a more adept puck mover to eat the main minutes.

    I hope people are right about our new euros. I still don't expect them to match the previous ones.

  10. #110

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    A number of people have posted and seem to agree that we need at the very least two veteran wingers and D-man. That would seem to be the minimum additions along with King and Oksanen. SAJ is quite right about the possibility of a 17 year old stepping up and replicating what Henry did last season. Morrisseau was a highly rated bantam and top pick (top 10) and if he returns good from injury and played along side Steel, who know what might emerge. Lockner is a player they viewed as first round material and he too could emerge playing along side Steel or Bradley.

    I am not concerned or interested in what MJ or SC do as a team, or what assets they may or may not have to trade with. That's something their fans can ponder. I know the Pats have a lot of young assets to trade with along with a few roster players who can bring a good return. They also have the 1st round pick they have pegged for Jost. They should have ample assets to make the trades they want. Paddock has shown that if he wants something he will get it. If for any reason Wagner were to return after rehab, the Pats would get an elite player back for nothing. Being a Memorial Cup year Paddock won't be shy.

    Zamula is a project who is expected to become a very good player. A 17 year old Zamula who with Riley Bruce and Owen Willams already shows the genesis of a good defence in a year or two after this season. That means the Pats will be very strong going forward. 17 year old forwards Morrisseau, Lockner, Bassi, Belinski, Muir, Kjemhus, and host of others puts the Pats in a very enviable position. Then there is the USA kids of which we may get a couple. Point being is we have bunch of young talented kids on the cusp and all may not be able to play here. Meaning we do have some assets to trade when required.

    I still have grave concerns about the assets moved for Mahura and even Smart. To a great extent it hampered us but I think there are enough other assets to do what we need to. Certainly as much as any other team we are competing with. Again it's a Memorial Cup year so all bets are off..

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