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Thread: 2019-2020 - November& DEcember Games - Drown your sorrows over the season here!

  1. #11


    So is this how things are going to go the whole year? Averaging 1 or 2 wins per month? It seems like a team of players who are all snake bitten at once, or it's like a dry spell that never seems to end.

    What's so different from last year vs this year? Aside from some small moves, this is largely the exact same group we had last year. Is it goaltending? Is it the rookies not being ready? Is it lack of depth? Is it lack of size? Are the rules a bit different? Is coaching on the fly a weakness?

    What's the friggin problem here?

  2. #12


    Quote Originally Posted by Some_Arrogant_Jerk View Post
    So is this how things are going to go the whole year? Averaging 1 or 2 wins per month? It seems like a team of players who are all snake bitten at once, or it's like a dry spell that never seems to end.

    What's so different from last year vs this year? Aside from some small moves, this is largely the exact same group we had last year. Is it goaltending? Is it the rookies not being ready? Is it lack of depth? Is it lack of size? Are the rules a bit different? Is coaching on the fly a weakness?

    What's the friggin problem here?

    Wow you bring up a lot of very intriguing questions. Notwithstanding last nights win they do have some serious issues. Last night they worked very hard for the win. They also made an inordinate number of mistakes, giveaways, and took 8 minor penalties. PA also played a poor game. It was a trap game for PA and they were bound to have one at some point. They will need to be much better against Swift and Calgary. It was interesting to see Alkimhov had 2 points for the Broncos in what I believe it was his first game there.

    It's quite true that the team is for the most part, the same group as last year. In fact with the additions of Holmes and Wytinck it should even be a bit stronger. Pratt and Kolle have played pretty well however it drops off after that. Alkimhov liked it here and had 13 goals in his rookie year. Along with that fact he had developed some strong chemistry with Dubinsky which gave great promise. Krane also had a good year last season and much was expected from him this year. Alkimhov is gone and Krane seems to be on Struch's hit list. I see Krane being reamed out too often by Struch, he's been benched for penalties (the only one) and he doesn't seem to like it here much. With Struch's performance he needs whipping boy.

    There are three things that jump out at any observer. (1) the team as a whole has not made the the strides anticipated especially the returning guys. Kids like Dubinsky, Evans, Krane, Sedov, Massier etc. haven't had the blessing of good talent around them. They are usually paired with lower end talent or rookies. The rookies have not advanced as had hoped.Young Sanders has only been in 6 games and some of those 6 he hasn't played much. He's not gaining anything this year. Englot and Stanick are occasional contributors. Zack Smith has been perhaps the best of the lot during his limited time. (2) The line of Pratt, Kolle and Holmes has been our best obviously but after those guys the depth of talent t drops off exponentially. We don't have a second top line to come out and keep the pressure on. That's why in away games our top line isn't on the scoresheet much. (3) goaltending has been inconsistent most of the way so far. Even the tying goal last night was weak. It's been that way all season to date.

    The net result is that we have a one line team with what I last counted included 7 rookies, inconsistent goaltending, young defence, and one quality forward line. When you combine the factors the result is wll sort of predictable. The fact that this team is older than last year suggests that perhaps there are some other factors in play here. Size is certainly a concern especially on the back end but even more than that I think the biggest contributing factor rests entirely with your final point.

    The coaching in my mind hasn't been up to the standard that we need. When I consider Brockman took over a bad team and had 26 wins in his rookie reason. The following year he had 35 wins vs 33 losses so he was above .500 (got fired for his efforts). After Struch's sole year in Saskatoon with I think 16 wins. Now his two years here which will both be disastrous. When this should have been better it's worse. It seems he just makes decisions that they come up. There often isn't any serious game plan when playing tough teams, when all you have is little talent. I think that a lot of the bench is tuning him out. I know Krane did even though his hit in the 2nd period turned the game around (he was bench the rest of the way—again). It's tough for kids to buy in to someone who has no winning experience as a HC. Regardless of the Hockey Canada (old boys) appearances, I don't think he is the answer. We need someone with more credible experience and a history of winning behind him. The last few good years we had were the result of Parker and crew. This is now Paddock's handwork. I have never been a great fan of his but that's for another day. It may be time to clean up this mess. We should have never been in a position to need wholesale changes at the deadline to compete in a Memorial Cup. Tis mess had little to do with 2017-2018.

  3. #13


    Quote Originally Posted by Some_Arrogant_Jerk View Post
    So is this how things are going to go the whole year? Averaging 1 or 2 wins per month? It seems like a team of players who are all snake bitten at once, or it's like a dry spell that never seems to end.

    What's so different from last year vs this year? Aside from some small moves, this is largely the exact same group we had last year. Is it goaltending? Is it the rookies not being ready? Is it lack of depth? Is it lack of size? Are the rules a bit different? Is coaching on the fly a weakness?

    What's the friggin problem here?
    Where do I start?
    - Lack of high end talent
    - Lack of discipline (talk about a bad combination)
    - Inability to keep the other team from scoring. Playing with the current strategy works when your team is loaded with elite offensive talent, but losses happen with this strategy when there's zero elite talent on the team. They aren't coaching to the players' strengths (or lack there-of).
    - Inability to draft and recruit high end talent. The Pats actually have elite talent in the organization. Ty Smilanic and Daniil Gushchin, both in their 17 year old seasons, are playing in the USHL this year instead of on the Pats. It's difficult to win games, if you can't get the talent to show up.
    - Playing the season with one import. Giving Alkhimov away and not being able to get an equal or better import to sign and report was a loss for a Pats team, which had a poor record last year and was looking to take a step forward this year.
    - + Everything else that chopper explained.

    Essentially what happened is JP backed himself into a corner by shooting himself in the foot too many times. The Pats need talent in order to win this year and they also need to sell in order to get more 2020 draft picks. They don't have the resources in order to acquire the talent that they need this year and if / when they sell the little talent that they do have, it will arguably make the team even worse in the short term. What they need to do is sell at the deadline in order to acquire more 2020 draft picks, then nail the 2020 bantam draft, followed by the import draft. However, I don't have a lot of confidence in the Pats doing that after blowing both drafts last summer.

    This organization is in trouble and they aren't going to get out of the corner anytime soon if ownership continues to allow JP to shoot himself in the foot. He can't draft, he can't recruit, he can't buy, he can't implement the proper systems to match the ability of the roster and he definitely can't get the lack of discipline under control. He can sell and he can coach an elite team. Essentially his abilities do not match the needs of the organization right now. The Pats need to find someone who can draft and recruit and someone who can hire a proper coaching staff for this roster.

  4. #14


    Interesting that the Raiders couldn't get their bus going after Saturday's game. It was still in the parking lot at the western final. Don't know if they spent the night in YQR or got another bus to get back to PA. Rooms would have been at a premium Saturday night. Talk about a bad night lose to the Pats and bus problems.....

  5. #15


    TRADE: Pats acquire Regina product Carson Denomie from Moose Jaw

  6. #16


    My questions were more geared at a potential regression from last year to this one, rather than our overall outlook. I have to push back on you guys on our franchises standing with having JP.

    The one part i will agree with is this clubs combination of lack of current high end talent, as well as a lack of discipline. Its unclear what happened between the club last year vs this year. Perhaps an overall lack of development?

    I am not 100 percent sold on this being the ideal coaching staff, neither.

    But I definitely don’t think paddock is the issue. In the past, his move were primarily what led to the two contending runs we had. I havnt liked every single trade but hes won alot more than he has lost. Ive liked pretty much all the big moves(and id be happy to argue that most of them were very good...we could use some chat around here anyways). Paddock brought in hobbs, got jake, sanford, mahura, traded jake/hank, fleury, etc. He developed some of the parker regime’s holdovers into being better players, like wagner and brooks. He also gave Steel the right players to play with(like sanford, leedahl). He deserves credit for putting together a quality team(s).

    The only really bad moves were dropping zamula, the sloboshan trade that killed our depth, taking a chance with kubic, and yes this recent alkhimov mistake. Basically if he avoids Saskatoon players and europeans, hes golden.

    Having JP here isnt the same eyesore that having brent parker here was. He is better than most in this league, and largely, recruiting talent was not an issue particularly when we were winning. The henry move was wizardry, and getting lockner, at the time, was a big get as well. We also convince jake johnson to come onto the team, and might be able to do the same with colby woogk. The recent issues with getting longshots like smilanic and savoie to report are not indicative of specific troubles with this franchise, and with this recent gushkin debacle, its hard to say this same kid, like those others, would've reported to the other teams as well. At this juncture, with nhl scouts currently having a major hard-on for american junior A, and our current mem cup rebuilding process, who can blame players for otherwise deciding not to go out of their way to go play in a harder league in the coldest part of the country on a team rebuilding from scratch?

    Its also too early to say we blew the bantam draft. We have alot of Dmen succeeding in misget, and Huck is doing well too, and should be reporting to next camp. Kieper looks like a keeper(heh). We should see with the USA forwards, but this next draft will be most important, where we hopefully get to select a top of the line player(wonder where we got that pick).

  7. #17


    Although despite everything that i just said, im not too keen on this trade as a first impression. I liked garrett wright, and Denomie is cooling down considerably after his start, while also not being all that proven.

    But we dont want players, who are too used to losing or arent developing, to stick around here too long. For their sakes and ours. Pierce was regressing, and mcginley was the odd man out. Chorney and dailey bring some optimism.

    Hard to say how these recent swaps play out. But they also might not matter. Barring any luck, We are whistling in the wind for the next few years until we get our new sam steel 2.0 at this bantam draft here anyways. And our second try at drafting a top import player.

  8. #18

    Default Broncos 2 - Pats 1 // Other Stuff

    The Pats lost again even though they outshot Swift Current. The reality is that it doesn't matter about shots on goal, bad breaks, etc etc, it's about the final score - wins/losses. It would appear that it's now official; The Pats are the worst team in the WHL!! Another bad trade cast-off in Alkimhov sunk us.

    The chatter on this site has been a bit off this year. However considering how bad this team is and even worse than last year, it's not hard to understand why.

    In 2013-14 we won a pennant in the East . We had drafted a ton of good players such as Steel, Brooks, Wagner, Burroughs, Hunt, Gay, and more. We were on the cusp of becoming a great team. In 2014-15 we were only a couple players away from being contenders while playing close to .600 hockey. Instead of adding a couple pieces we were deconstructed. In the next 6 years we have won an East Division Pennant and Scotty Munro Trophy. Not much at all considering all we gave up along the way. The results haven't been impressive and this is a results business.

    We did get some decent players here but at what cost. Hobbs cost us both Hunt and Burroughs. Both of whom were elite players and one currently in the NHL. Sanford cost us two high end prospects and three top draft picks in a year we weren't going anywhere. Lescyshyn cost us Gay, one 1st, one 2nd and a 7th. We didn't get that much back for him. Then there was perhaps the worst trade in Pats history. Mahura for Barteaux (1st rounder), two 1st round bantam picks, and Zablocki (Gabrielle-Klimchuk) so in reality the equivalency of four 1st round picks. That one trade is still impacting us today. In JP's defence he didn't have much experience in the WHL and he was probably taken advantage of. When you lose that many picks and have to face Bantam Drafts without those picks you're doomed to failure. Combine that with a half dozen 3rd and 4th round USA picks they can't get to report, it kills you! Outside of Lockner, we have never had a top drafted American ever sign on and play with the Pats. I think that's more than just some kid not wanting tom play here. It's all about recruiting strategies. Then you additionally add in all the good players given away for virtually nothing that went to be top players elsewhere. Lots of bad trades….yikes!

    PA has had Draisatl and now has Protas so getting players to the cold remote places doesn't hold water (frozen water). Brandon has had several all-stars as has Swift Current (first overall Import pick), Lethbridge has Akuliar this year with what 17 goals. There are many more instances of top Imports being convinced to report. How we could have used someone like that. We wouldn't be going 0-6 on the PP. Getting top Imports to report requires top recruiting skills.

    Red Deer since hosting the Memorial Cup (made many changes) hasn't missed the playoffs. I think Brandon has maybe missed once but thats it. PA won their way last year and is well positioned to do it again this year. They also look to have the makings of a great team again next season. This "crushes" the idea that we had to do all this to have one good season (2016-17)..then be below.500 at Xmas during the 2017-18 season but were awarded host status. Reality is we've accomplished very little in the last six years despite emptying the cupboards bare.

    I completely agree with Reider's assessment and I think he is totally on point. I also agree that everyone has the right to their opinion as to how JP has performed and as a GM. I respect the different takes. I have never been convinced, am not now, and likely never will be of his acumen as GM. If anyone cares to recall ownership was turned down twice by individuals before they got to JP.

    Even if someone was to concede that JP was an OK general manager, why has he not done anything about what many perceive as some weak coaching? Lack of a defence coach, poor specialty teams with PP last in the WHL. How can someone who has never won as a HC, teach young guys how to be winners? The culture has changed dramatically for the worse. It has to be addressed IMO.

    The lack of talent is deeply concerning. The recently drafted guys wont be impact players for at least a few years. What happens in the mean time? I can see at least a 5 year window where the Pats will be doormats. This organization should be much better than that. Other teams don't have this supposed cyclical problem! Then why are we? Organizations fail from the top down and not the other way. Good business models are not built on failure and bad personnel. Ownership has to step up and implement whatever is necessary to right the ship.

    The sad part about last nights game is that it makes it tougher for the Pats to get out of the cellar. If the Pats finish last and get the 1st overall bantam pick than that goes to Saskatoon (ouch..that really hurts). That's expected to be Connor Bedard who may gain CHL exceptional status. Swift Current doesn't want to finish last and get the first pick because that would go to us..yeah!! This season has huge implications. They have to take measures to start really moving up the standing. Do it now before it's too late. There is a lot riding on this season. A lot more than some fans realize.

  9. #19


    The trade for mahura was a obviously pats overpayment. Two firsts, a top six gritty winger, and a good young D for one top player and throw ins is what red deer saw. It was what it took to get the deal done, because reginas management still thought it was worth it. The pats knew they *overpaid* in *value*, but value isn’t everything. Ill tell you why. Value is something thats generally agreed upon based on stats and experience. End product is another thing entirely, and that requires insight to determine.

    Perhaps paddock saw enough of barteaux to see his market value as a mid-late first round pick didn't match the staff’s predictions for what he would become. Therefore he was worth more to trade than keep. And maybe the staff saw enough of Zablocki to know that although he had nice stats, that maybe was a ****head who didnt get with the program, and not the type of veteran player they wanted to keep down the road. If paddock has the foresight to see a disparity between a players’s value vs quality, or market perception vs reality, he can use that to his advantage.

    And paddock did this. What ended up happening was red deer got 60 games of a temperamental forward who they also ended up dumping, three seasons of a decent top 4 D, and two young kids. One kid already seems like an underwhelming first round pick and they both currently arent factors at the whl level. Such possibilities are high when you receive LATE 1sts. So far, since the trade, theyve gone no further than the first round. Your proclamation from the mountain top of four firsts assigned to this package has quickly become an average payout...

    ...while the pats on the other hand got two full seasons of an all star dman who was all that we wanted, a throw in who was meh, and a 3rd that interestingly they turned into austin pratt, whose started slow but has been our top forward for a year and a half(and should bring back a similar package to what zablocki got when red deer moved him).

    Look i get it, at the time i was bit annoyed too that we moved zablocki, but perhaps he wouldve also regressed with the pats like he did on those other teams. Although he had value, maybe it was already evident he was a declining asset. Alot goes one behind the scenes that doesnt make aense to the fan who sees only games. Zablocki ended up going to the bchl since nobody wanted him, and barteaux has been allright but not dynamic. Neither barteaux or zablocki put red deer past the first round, and this year red deer may not even be playoff bound. Think about it this way. How many extra playoff games and rounds did having mahura provide us in that short term? How many did we lose by sacrificing the future for that present? Was the net return in our favor? How many rounds did red deer lose from giving up mahura? How many did they gain from “strengthening” their long term? We cant really say yet for red deer until rowland and masters come into their own. But the vegas odds on that being better than the pats end arent going to be friendly.

    As far as affecting the pats long term, i dont think Ethan rowland and kyle masters are the cure to what ails the pats, and by extension the mahura trade in general was not responsible for these troubles. To me, dropping zamula in order to get hajek(who, granted, was really good, but still a rental), and the hebig trade both played a much much bigger role in this current debacle than the mahura trade. It also doesnt help with the recent holt trade, that we selected the one picky european in the entire draft who didnt want to report to the whl. If gushkin came here, maybe we would be past the rebels at this point in the season — which to me would clearly signify the trade had been won by the pats, if not for those other circumstances playing a role.

    Edit: Im sorry, i just caught this but it deserves noting — the mahura trade was most definitely not the worst trade in pats history. If we won the whole thing once, or even twice(when you think about it, this was possible: whl finals maybe with a healthy brooks, and a different mem cup finals), it would be considered the best trade in team history, or close to it.
    Last edited by Some_Arrogant_Jerk; 11-22-2019 at 12:11 PM.

  10. #20


    We did get some decent players here but at what cost. Hobbs cost us both Hunt and Burroughs. Both of whom were elite players and one currently in the NHL. Sanford cost us two high end prospects and three top draft picks in a year we weren't going anywhere. Lescyshyn cost us Gay, one 1st, one 2nd and a 7th. We didn't get that much back for him
    Hobbs was infinitely better than burroughs. As for hunt, its hard to say, but ill take a stud defenceman over a stud forward every day of the week. Especially since we got an extra season of a high level player through the exchange. Hobbs was also a physical threat while also a goal scoring threat on the point. To me this was still a great trade.

    And respectfully, youre flat out incorrect on the next two. I remember talking about this awhile back but the recap is that sanford didn't cost us two high end prospects. We traded Brian Williams(who did nothing, waiver pickup), Gary Haden(a good prospect who i liked but at the time wasnt guarenteed a roster spot), 2016 3rd(we traded kroeker for this 2016 3rd pick earlier in this deadline), a 2017 5th round pick(we recovered it by moving list pickup adam berg in the offseason), and a 2018 2nd round pick(ended up being a dman who played 20 games for med hat). HARDLY a franchise killer. This trade gave us another round of playoff hockey(almost two if not for one dumb goal). Most importantly, playing with sanford was an investment into Sam Steel. It helped shape him into the player he became with us. Because the very next year, he followed up with ONE HUNDRED AND THIRTY ONE POINTS. Inflated stats or not, thats insane, and i dont think he does that without playing with cole sanford.

    As for jake, he was 10x better than connor gay.

    we didnt get much back for him
    We got a ton back for jake, including a potential top 3 overall bantam pick. That trade almost single handedly restored our coffers. We picked up jake, we developed him, and moved him for alot more than we paid for to have him. To me, thats good management of assets. Even if you take that lethbirsge package for jake + hank and cut it in half, it still exceeds the package we paid to get him with red deer.

    Just imagine how much better it wouldve been if we didnt lose him to that major injury.

    Without dissecting every single other of his moves, on paddock in general, i like him because he takes risks, doesnt sit on his hands, and has a vision for what he wants. His experience adds an air of credibility to the franchise. I hope he stays.

    This year I think he is weighiing all options, and certainly aware of how things are going right now. He isnt shooting himself in the foot by not acting right this second. With these small trades he is doing what he can before he makes struch accountable for a bad year. For all we know, ownership is staying his hand for making the coaching change, though im inclined to believe thats not the case, nor is it the right call to make at this point right now; as the team is playing alot better now, despite the lack of results, than before.

    For better or for worse, paddock will get the blame and the accolades for both the ups and downs with this franchise, whether its right or not he gets them. I say to both reider and chopper to be consistent with this. Paddock brought us to prominence AND sunk us, or its more nuanced than that, and his actions contributed to both but were not the sole reason we had successes and failures. It isnt just one and the other, as the outcomes are interlinked with the personnel. As outlined i prefer to keep him here as i think he can right the ship and build another strong team. This bantam selection from the jake+hank trade could be the center of it.
    Last edited by Some_Arrogant_Jerk; 11-22-2019 at 12:16 PM.

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