Head Coach
he shouldve been traded a couple seasons ago, honestly. he just never really took off, and didnt have leadership qualities.
Perhaps this increases the chances of Bedard being moved at the deadline.
By the way, is this Shantz kid any relation to the Jeff?
3rd Liner
Just wondering what team would trade an OA at this point in the season? It would have to be a team that sees no chance of making the playoffs at this point in time.
EDIT: It seems the third 20 year old is Brook - he played last night.
Last edited by dsquared; 11-06-2022 at 02:25 PM.
1938-39 Regina Pats scoring leader
2nd Liner
The Pats beat the top ranked team in the country last night (Red Deer) 6-2. At least they were the top ranked team in the country 4 days before the game started. They won't be the top team in the league this week. The Pats played a full 60 minutes as a team and their special teams was really good as well. They went 3 for 3 on the power play and 4 for 5 on the penalty kill. The Pats really needed that win after losing their last two games to Swift Current, which they needed to win (1 was an over-time loss, so they still got one point).
I don't believe that Zackary Shantz is related to Jeff Shantz. Zackary did say in an interview that his dad played on the Prince Albert Raiders though. Tyler Shantz played 17 games for the Prince Albert Raiders in 1996-1997, so that might be his dad. Zackary played in the Edmonton game and got ran over by an Oil Kings player and he hasn't played since. John Paddock said in an interview that he's doing okay, so I'm sure he'll be back in the line up soon.
Cole Dubinsky is thriving in Prince George. It seems like the change of scenery is working in his favour. He has 3 goals and 2 assists in 3 games so far and his assist in tonight's game made it as the highlight of the night on the WHL.ca website.
Apparently John Paddock told Les Lazaruk in an interview today that the Pats will not be trading Connor Bedard. The Pats have a long road trip ahead, then they'll probably lose Bedard, Svozil and Suzdalev to the WJHC, so the Pats are probably going to have a tough 7 weeks ahead of them. If they fall far out of a playoff spot, why wouldn't John Paddock and the Pats want to move Bedard and Svozil etc.. in order to help build for the future? Last year, the Pats kept Ryker Evans et. al and they didn't even make the playoffs. If the Pats keep Bedard and Svozil etc.. and they miss the playoffs again this year, they're going to have a lot of assets going to waste over the last couple of years, which could have been used to build the future. The Pats haven't made the playoffs since 2018, so all of these wasted resources are only going to prolong the rebuild. It's only going to make the hole even bigger for the next GM to get the team out of. If the Pats would have sold big last year and this year, they'd be in good shape and would have had the cupboards stocked, so that the next GM would have a lot to work with. But instead, JP kept Evans and Bedard (so far) etc.. and used high draft picks on Stringer and Oremba, etc.. So the next GM won't have a stacked team or stocked cupboards to start out with.
Last edited by Reider; 11-13-2022 at 10:11 PM.
Assistant Coach
Some very strange goings-on over in Pat-Land for sure.
On one hand we hear that they're not trading Bedard but instead they are going to build a team capable of winning a playoff spot. That usually means obtaining some good 19's and 20's to supplement what you have. However our last two trades were for 17's and picks. Anyone who knows anything, realizes you don't build playoff capable teams with young 17's while trading off veteran guys. The target is always moving so it's pretty hard to figure out what the end game is. If it's to obtain a bunch of 17 year old picks with an eye to a couple years down the road, perhaps some of the trades makes a little bit of sense. However if that's the game why not trade off a bunch of assets who won't be back, Bedard included. Considering the Pats are playing barely .500 hockey and have only beat one team above .500 this year, moving Bedard shouldn't be discounted out of hand as seems to be the case. Particularly since the strong consensus is that he will play in the NHL next season. It would also be unforgivable if the Pats were to miss the playoffs again!
This team has a brutally tough November with only 3 home games. They just finished their first road game in Saskatoon, and now we're in Winnipeg twice this weekend. Then they go on a hard 5 game road trip into BC, a game in Edmonton on the way back, and then up to PA completes the road trip. That will end end up being 10 games on the road. I suspect it's reasonable to think their record could be worse by the time they get back home. Then to make matters more troublesome they have a schedule of tough opposition which includes Winnipeg, Saskatoon and Moose jaw right away. After that it's the World Junior Camps and we will no doubt lose 2 players for a month at the championships, and perhaps 3 players.
If they want a chance at staying afloat November and December, they would seemingly need a couple quality veteran players “right now” to help carry the mail while we are missing our top talent. With all due respect I can't imagine a scenario where Jacob Brooks is that player! Pickings are slim and prices high. Who can they get who can really help them and make up what Bedard etc can do, and at what price? We've already lost our next two (23 and 24) 1st round picks and more, for what seems to me like two very ill conceived moves, if playoffs is the goal. There isn't much more to trade with unless it can happen with some of our current lineup pieces. We can't afford to give away any more of our future for what we appear to need now. There is absolutely zero doubt that if the Pats don't get their “goals against” down exponentially, they won't go anywhere.
We're still in a long rebuild where most of our top picks/prospects had been traded away. It's been tough without those picks. We were trying to do it with mediocre talent and depth. If management is not careful they might take us into a second rebuild which could last another very long time and again have to do it without top picks. We've been forced to endure this rebuild and I don't sense there is any appetite for another long rebuild. Great teams are not built with one player! They are built with many good players who play great collectively, and are usually obtained through top draft picks. That's what we should be doing going forward.
Last edited by chopper; 11-15-2022 at 04:50 PM.
3rd Liner
JP is emulating Saddam Hussein's Kuwait strategy - Burn the Place Down! and is repeating Parker's refusal to trade Eberle & Teubert for a futureOriginally Posted by Reider
The fact he would state that he will not consider trading Bedard at this juncture is irresponsible. I believe Saturday's game was the first time we beat a team with a better record. Why don't you look at how the team stacks up at the end of December after the long road trip and loaning players to the world juniors and see if there has been some improvement and see if we have a chance in the playoffs? As it stands now we would be playing the Rebels or Ice - we would be on the golf course after at most 5 games with either team!
1938-39 Regina Pats scoring leader
2nd Liner
Taking the approach that the Pats are on Connor Bedard could be like a self-fulfilling prophecy. As it is, we're in a year where the Kamloops Blazers are hosting the Memorial Cup this season, so two WHL teams will make it to the Memorial Cup this year. In theory, there should be more buying teams than in non-hosting years, but with Dylan Guenther staying in the NHL and Connor Bedard apparently not being traded etc.. there's arguably going to be a relatively low supply of high end veteran talent for the many potential buying teams out there this year. In a situation, where there's low supply and high demand, prices are going to rise. And that's arguably what we're seeing so far. It's the middle of November and we've already seen Winnipeg, Kamloops, and Seattle etc.. trade multiple high draft picks for players and this will continue over the next couple of months, until the trade deadline. Kamloops just used a 1st (from Regina), a 2nd, a 3rd, and a 4th on Jakub Demek. To the best of my knowledge, Kamloops is a team that is / was interested in acquiring Bedard. Kamloops and most of the other contenders are not going to and cannot wait in hopes that the Pats change their mind on Bedard. They need to and have already started building their playoff rosters.
So what's going to happen? As time goes on and the Pats refuse to sell Bedard, teams are going to invest in other players, which they're already doing. So what's going to happen if the Pats change their mind at the last minute and they demand a large return for Bedard? How are teams like Kamloops going to be able to afford Bedard, after they already went out and invested a lot into other players because the Pats apparently took the stance that they were going to be buyers and that they weren't moving Bedard? How many teams are going to sit on their hands in hopes that a) The Pats decide to change their mind and trade Bedard and b) They will be the highest bidder for him. It doesn't make any sense. If The Pats are saying that Bedard is not for sale, other teams are going to make other investments.
What happens if / when the Pats decide to trade Bedard at the last minute and they aren't satisfied with other teams' offers for him (because they've already invested hugely into other players), so then the Pats keep him and tell everyone that teams didn't offer what the Pats thought he was worth. And thus it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Didn't the Pats keep Ryker Evans last year, then publicly state that the Pats weren't offered what they thought he was worth?
This is why some fans believe that the Pats' messaging is "irresponsible." If the Pats had said all along that they're open to moving Bedard and others, if the team is x number of games out of a playoff spot in early January, then teams might be more optimistic and more likely to save enough resources to acquire him. But if the Pats tell other teams that they're going to be buyers this year and that they're not trading Bedard, they have no choice, but to invest in other players, before they get snapped up by other buyers.
I know that some teams will still have some resources to use, when it's close to the deadline, but Bedard should arguably be one of the most coveted / expensive players available this year, if not the most expensive, so if you're going to sell him, you want a bidding war among all of the buying teams and not "scraped-together-offers" at the last minute from a couple of teams that didn't already heavily invest in other players.
Assistant Coach
By not making an asset available it's difficult to peg his value on the open market, If the door is left at least partially open a team (Pats) could at least get a feel for what's in play in terms of offers/trade returns for a player like Bedard. It could very well be that there is much more upside in moving him to a contender. If Paddock really wants to position this team well for after he leaves, he should really put the "team first" he should entertain offers. Failing to do so if very stubborn, short sighted and really quite damaging.
The idea that by keeping the required return for a player a secret or under wraps, then not move him "by design", and say the return wasn't high enough for you is devious. Fans are then fed a bunch of BS and never really know what you could have got, but it does get out. With all the draft assets traded away already within the last year or so, we've started down the road again to not having top picks come draft day for the next couple years. In return we have a guy Lethbridge didn't want and an unremarkable local 17 year old. Not the blueprint to build a playoff contending team.
Regardless of Bedard the Pats could still end up in the same position as last year. Not really a contender! Buying just to make playoffs makes no common sense whatsoever. Selling would be the "right" thing to do but JP will never be remembered for doing that. I think the Pats when full staffed have a pretty adequate offence right now. They however struggle mightily from their blue-line back. If their plan is make a couple moves I truly believe they have do things to bring their "goals against" down big time. After a good start it seems like our goalies are starting to slip back their career levels. Keiper's GAA is down a bit but only has played 7 games. Sim is about back to last years numbers. We have couple smaller d-men in Feist and Berge who struggle mightily against bigger forwards. We also have Svosil and Brown who are also offensive guys. It would be in the Pats best interest if the Pats do make a couple deals (sigh) to look at a top tier drafted goalie and 2 rugged bigger, shut-down type d-men. If they could keep the puck out of their net, their fortunes could improve. Maybe some of the aforementioned assets could be used to do that.
Let's hope they have a good BC road swing but historically it's been tough on them. If they can escape with a .500 record it would greatly enhance their prospects. Coming back a few games below .500 wouldn't be a great position to be in
***UPDATE***
The PA Raiders just traded Nolan Allen to Seattle for a few players and six (yes 6) draft picks including two 1st rounders and other high picks. In total PA get 9 assets............WOW what a haul.....Hunt is no dummy!!
Last edited by chopper; 11-16-2022 at 12:57 PM.
3rd Liner
Thank you for explaining it more eloquently than I did. If Seattle is willing to pay 6 draft picks for Allen - what might Bedard be worth? All JP had to do was say we are going to evaluate where we stand in early January and determine our prospects then. We will consider any offers that come forward. He closed the door to that - Junior Hockey is all about the cycle of building up talent and either making a playoff run or trading your talent to retool for another year. So we will end this year in typical JP fashion - no extended playoff run and nothing in the cupboard for the future. This cycle will never end!
1938-39 Regina Pats scoring leader
2nd Liner
You're welcome. There's no telling what Bedard could have gotten on the open market, if JP was open to the idea of trading him to begin with. Bedard is a 2.15 pts/g player and he has 10 more points than the second highest point producer in the league. And he's doing it as a 17 year old. And they're 20 games into the season, so it's no longer a small sample size. The Pats could definitely get a number of draft picks and prospects for Bedard, if they were willing to trade him. The Pats should have sold big last year and they didn't. They should this year and JP apparently won't trade Bedard. If JP would have sold big last year and this year, the Pats would have probably been set up nicely for a rebuild. Especially if JP wouldn't have used a bunch of resources on Stringer, Oremba, MacInnes, McNutt etc.. It would have been short term pain, but the Pats could have set themselves up for a really nice rebuild, had they sold big. Now where are they? They arguably made some foolish trades and missed out on stocking the shelves for the future, by not trading Evans, Bedard, Svozil etc... So next year the Pats will be without Bedard. They will be missing some draft picks and may have a difficult time making the playoffs. In fact, they're not guaranteed to make the playoffs this year. The rebuild is going to be set back many years do to not selling big and by spending foolishly.
You're right, Junior hockey is cyclical. It doesn't seem like the Pats are capitalizing on their opportunities. In fact, quite the opposite is happening. It seems like they're going against the current and doing the opposite of what winnings teams do. If they keep managing assets the way they currently are, they're never going to be able to build a Championship winning team. At best, they'll be perennially mediocre. You don't spend big and gamble on young project players, when you should be selling big. You buy veteran impact players, when your team is a serious contender.
Seattle has spent a lot of assets recently and did you notice that they used them on two big / heavy NHL drafted defensemen? Those are the types of players that are necessary for a long playoff run. The Pats could use a couple big defensemen like that right now. I'm sure Seattle will continue to try and improve their team, where they can. However, come January 9th, 2023, if JP finally decides that he's willing to trade Bedard, will Seattle have enough assets to afford Bedard? Will other teams be tapped out by then too? The more teams that have tapped out by then, the less teams there will be left to have a bidding war for Bedard. And if the leftover teams can't put together a package that satisfies JP, then he can just say that teams weren't willing to pay what Bedard was worth. How convenient would that be.
It seems like a healthy trade market this year. There's already been a few big trades and a lot of big assets were moved. The Pats could certainly get a big return for Bedard and Svozil etc.. but do they want to? Apparently not? Should they be selling big? Yeah, probably! They probably should have moved Evans last year too. It's like the Eberle / Teubert situation all over again, except this one is arguably bigger in magnitude because it's Bedard, Evans, Svozil, Nijhoff? and there's probably other players that could have been sold over the last two years as well. Look what Edmonton recently got for Jakub Demek. The Pats could even consider moving Suzdalev as an 18 year old or move him next year for a nice haul.
All I know is that if the Pats would have sold big last year and this year and even next year, the Pats would be set up for a really nice rebuild. But if they keep going on the path that they're going on, it's going to be a long time before they become a serious contender again. And what are they doing this for? They didn't even make the playoffs last year and they may not make the playoffs this year. And if they do make the playoffs this year and have to play Winnipeg, they're going to get bounced in the first round. Keeping all of these elite players only to miss the playoffs or to lose bad in the first round of the playoffs doesn't seem like it's worth it to me! And it most certainly won't be worth it in the future, when the Pats lose Bedard, miss the playoffs and don't have full cupboards for the rebuild that's already on year 4.
JP can conveniently retire after this season and the media can sing his praises on how he took the Pats to the WHL finals and to the Memorial Cup final the following year and they can talk about the Bedard years.... but at the end of the day, they didn't win anything. They didn't win a Championship. And due to the decisions that have been made over the years, they're many years away from getting that close again. In fact, if they don't make the playoffs this year, they could be years away from making the playoffs again, never mind being a serious contender again.
Last edited by Reider; 11-16-2022 at 09:20 PM.
Head Coach
I think tonight made it abundantly clear that we not only dont have the horses to compete in a 7 game series with the top teams, but even if we were to attempt a mini-run by adding a couple pieces around bedard, we would likely be dumped in the second round anyways, if not in the first round depending on seeding. I think they played fine overall tonight, but they simply lack that extra gear that seasoned teams like Winnipeg have acquired through seasoning. We also dont match them in depth, and definitely not franchise or club confidence. This is something that can only be acquired when you are tested in a higher stakes matchups: to us this game here was a big deal but to them, its nothing compared to 3rd round playoff hockey.
I know he is the scapegoat around here(its not completely without reason), but I doubt JP has really any say in the Bedard sweepstakes. Given the significance of keeping or dealing the best player this league has seen in probably a decade, as well as what could possibly the legacy-defining moment for this ownership group, Id say this is almost all on the ownership, and theyre making GM JP go out and impotently declare that he isnt being moved(for now). Personally, Im still confident theyll reverse course, once we get closer to the deadline with playoffs still not completely secured(hard to secure playoffs for anyone outside the top 4 in this stupid conference)...and once they see the kind of packages being offered for him. Seattle was probably deadset on shooting their load on D regardless what we decided to do, and many East Conf contenders are likely out of the running due to old school rivalries, and the amount of times we would have to face them this year...but other than that Id say everyone has some default level of interest. We know Kamloops would not spare any resource to get him. Winnipeg and Portland would no doubt put out offers to keep #1 seed alive, as it would guarentee them at least a round 3 appearance. I could see Everett making an offer. And of course outsiders with extra futures(like kelowna who planned on hosting a memorial cup not too long ago) would likely make a pitch to be apart of the potentially prominent Bedard legacy, which may be the single most important thing staying Ownership/JP's hands: not wanting to share ownership of a potential big time NHL talent with another team.
Id still say he is going to Kamloops for three 1sts, a boatload of conditionals, likely some extra picks and a couple young roster players(at least one 'blue chip'), along with us adding a throw-in. My darkhorse is Kelowna for less quantity and higher quality picks. Though really almost anybody making offers would surprise me. One thing even his critics will say is that JP is a bold GM.
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