Assistant Coach
Originally Posted by D87
Did you read what I said?
I said I wasn't necessarily talking about the victim, but about girls of that age in general. I can make a good guess that a lot of guys don't even know how young the girls they hang out with actually are.
I'm sorry, but I suggest you visit a party one night..and see what some of these girls are like.
Yes, I read what you said, and I still find it to be a disgusting misrepresentation.
I don't party with underage kids - I have a rule about that, but I did, and I have been to parties in the past few years with younger people. Not all girls that age act that way.
Your passing the buck for these guys by making a generalization in relation to this case, and a patently false generalization as well. Saying that most 15 year old girls dress and act in a way that is beyond there years would be like me saying that most hockey players try to take advantage of their demi-God status in this country. Or that MOST people of any particular race do a certain thing.
It's a stereotype and generalization that passes the responsibility off of the young men, and onto the shoulders of a child.
D
It would have been "wrong" in New York because the age of consent for sexual activity in New York is 16 years old. Legally your 18 year old boyfriend would have been a sex offender if he had touched you sexually AT ALL.
That's why its wrong.
There is a huge difference in maturity between 14 and 18, as well as in life experience. The fact is, the Canadian federal government also wants to raise the age of consent to 16, and should they do so, everyone over that age will have to be very, very careful.
Call me crazy, but I'm leary of any situation in which there is one YOUNG girl and a bunch of older guys.
D
Power Forward
When I was 17, I went out with a 14 year old. Thats borderline illeagal and it happens. Whether or not she is just trying to get attention or not who knows. A possiblity is that they were just out too late, thats the team rule they violated. The cops could be involved becuase the parents of the girl could have called them, I know in Washington untill a certain age, the parents are the ones who decides if its rape, not the girl.
And besides, what guy wants to do something with a girl with 2 other guys around or with two guys? Its an akward feeling to do things with other people in the house, don't wanna get caught with your pants down...
I take pride in not owning a cowbell!
2nd Liner
Oh wow... I don't know how old any of you are but I know girls I went to high school (and even middle school) with that have done a LOT worse things than 2 guys at a time.
Maybe the times are changing faster than people realize because honestly, a LOT of young girls are doing stuff that I hadn't even though about at that age.
Assistant Coach
One thing not talked about so far here is this.....Did the players KNOW the girl was 15? She may have been dressed, acted, and for all appearances looked 17 or 18. Could it be the guys assumed she was "legal" and went to her house? Could it be they were out later than intended and the parents called the police to alert them she was gone to long?
Trust me, I know boys are no angels. I was a teen aged boy once myself and I still know how those thoughts and hormons run rampant. There is also such an infinately fine line on what is and is not to be concidered sexual assault, harrasment, and even abuse. What seems to be acceptable to one person is not acceptable to another, things change day to day with some people too. I'm NOT trying to make light of any situation where sexual assault, or violence is factored in. I've seen to much crap happen from it, both ways. The girl in question is OK with what is going on....someone else sees what is going on and doesn't like it feeling it inappropriate behaviour, and reports it. REGARDLESS if the girl involved was fine with the actions or not, the guy is changed, because someone else reported it. Another situation I know fairly well.....a young man and his girlfriend are having an arguement in their car, before he gets to mad and looses control he asks/tells her to get out of the car. They are in a well lit parking lot with lots of people around, she has her cell phone. She refuses to get out, so he gets out, opens the passenger door, takes her by the wrist and leads her out of the car, closes the door and drives away. She charges him with abuse because she's pissed off about getting left. She has NO bruises, he never hit her, jsut took her by the wrist. Now he has been going through abuse classes and anger management becasue of this. The hypocritical thing of it is, she is mentally unbalanced and had to keep up on her meds so she doesn't flip out and beat him (which she has done in the past, black eyes, scratched to hell and such) and he's the one taking classes. Seems a double standard for sure.
D87, I know by now you are fuming reading this, thinking I'm just another man pig that thinks the guy is right. I'm not. Just trying to point out there are a lot of situations that are classified as abuse, harrasment, and assault, that truely aren't. I DO believe that for every false accusation there are likely 8-10 true assaults that go unreported, and the numbers just as high for every true case reported versus unreported.
I understand this is a rebuilding year, but come on boys!!
I've been trying to stay out of this arguement, but I just cannot anymore.
Firstly, and most importantly, we do not know for sure what happened... nor do we know the individuals involved, so why guess about what did or did not happen? Logic may tell us one thing, but what happened to innocent till proven guilty?
Also, the subject of abuse is kind of a hard one to deal with on this forum. I agree with Sput on this one: what is abuse in one time or setting may not be abuse in another time or setting. I know I have friends who have looked back on a past situation and thought something totally different than they thought at the time. In several cases, which have been documented, the parents worry about what happened to their little girl and jump to conculsions. When your daughter comes home from a party crying, what do you assume? The worst. It could be that the boys found out the truth about her age, experience, and or lifestyle, and rejected her... anything is a possibility when you dont know the truth. I too have seen guys be hurt by girls that were 'rejected' and then come back on them charging the guy with whatever. Its a attention thing.
Carebear, you are not off base assuming that the girl may not be exactly prim, proper and moral. The one thing I have noticed as well, is that the girls that hang around the guys generally are not the most wholesome girls around. Im not blaming the victem here, but in all honestly, most of those girls hang around for the attention, and in some cases that means sex. These girls have serious issues with self esteem and self respect, but thats just my view.
The other important distinction to make is not all hockey players are bad. Several come from good family backgrounds and know better than to take advantage of a girl, even if she is willing to put out.
Legally, the laws mean crap all until someone says "hey, your breaking the law." Crime is socially constructed. It is not something that is objective, rather it is very very subjective. Ex. You may speed while driving on a daily basis. Are you breaking a law? you may realize that you are, but you dont see yourself as being a problem, and figure the police have better things to do than slow down the speed of trafic. Speeding becomes a crime once it is defined as such by others, such as a police officer charging you with speeding. Make sense? My point here is, just because it is illegal in the books, it only becomes a crime once someone calls it such. Dating someone under the age of majority usually isnt a big deal, until someone calls foul. Abuse is only abuse once it has been defined as such by a victem, perpetrator or law enforcement official. Legal ages mean crap all, until an issue arises. Make sense?
Generalizations suck, but they are important for us to be able to understand society the way we do. The things we need to be careful is to not say "all girls act this way when they hang out around the rink" and to instead say "some girls act this way"....
Assistant Coach
True that sista.
Some of you "older" posters probably don't see/hear/realize this, because you don't see these girls at parties.
Number 4 was bang on with respect to NOT ALL, but some of the girls these boys hang out with, and obviously the boys aren't all angels themselves. But take a look around a hockey rink one day... You see those girls in mini skirts up to their asses, jeans so tight they looked like their painted on and boobs hanging out...those are the ones looking for the attention from the players, and I'm sure most males aren't gonna say no to that.
And as Sput said...these girls look way older than they really are. Hell I'm 22 and most of them look older than I do!
For the record, I'm not that old. I'm in my 20s, though I won't say where. Some of my male and female friends are 17,18,19 years old. I am well aware of what goes on at parties.
I have friends who play pro hockey. I know what goes on, and what did go on.
I am NOT saying these guys are guilty. I am NOT saying she didn't lie.
What I am saying is that NO one should jump to ANY conclusions about ANYTHING in this case, and that immediately ASSUMING that the victim is somehow at fault is WRONG.
D
Assistant Coach
And nobody said anything about THIS CASE SPECIFICALLY.
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